Turbo Upgrade...please help - Page 3 - Subaru WRX Forum
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#31 Old 05-21-2011, 10:47 AM
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It would really depend on your money range and how built you want to go. You can get a shortblock and then upgrade it slowly like chris is doing or you can go my route and pay someone else to do it. Which costs more and the same can be said with pulling the engine and swapping it yourself or having someone else do it. I didn't have the time to slowly do it and at the time my car was my daily driver. So, I paid to have a short block built and had my tuner install it. Granted I had the money to do it to because it was not cheap. My tuner recommended me to at least do the pistons and rings if I was going to get to the 350whp or tq range. I got the whole short block upgraded: rods, bearings, forged crankshaft, forged pistons, and new rings. Which I'm now at 350 whp and over 350 tq. He said its mostly the tq and it will stress the stock pistons and rings at that point. The money is going to depend on which route you want to go. I'd worry more about your transmission before the engine though. Trading in for a STI is your call. A lot of guys like to tough it out and say their upgraded WRXs can put up the big numbers like STI. Which they can, it just takes a little more work to get it done. I like all the addition add-ons the STI has over the WRX.

c2bcoolwrx keeps forgetting to mention that he has head work on his hybrid set-up. So, his car is making very good numbers on a 18G.


The Dom 2.5XT-R is 49 lbs/min and BB. Just in case anyone forgot. I am happy with how quick my tq and hp come on. But, the numbers game always has me searching for more power and tq. Like I said, I might go backwards to get heads that are P&P, upgraded springs, valves, and cams. Probably also getting a custom FMIC built from my tuner's fabricator. That'd pretty much finish my car off without getting a bigger turbo. Which I doubt I'd ever do because I don't want lag. Plus, I won't run meth or E85. Unless I could get my tuner convinced to do it. Which seems like a snowballs chance in hell because of how unregulated E85 is.
Sorry for the noob question but if I was to upgrade my motor and just do the pistons and rings what size would I need to upgrade them to? I am more worried about the transmission than the engine most definitely.

So what exactly is your opinion on E85. I know that my tuner loves to run it but I've just heard many pros and cons. In terms of "unregulated" what do you mean?

Turbo wise I'm really considering the blouch 20g-xtr. Is the biggest difference with ball bearing just quicker spool?

Also, when purchasing the turbo, it asks if I would like a 3" inlet housing for an additional $50. Do I need that? And is the coated turbine housing for an additional $100 worth it...or should i just skip that?

Brett
2006 WRX TR
Dom 2.5 XT-R
430 awhp 428 awtq
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#32 Old 05-21-2011, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by c2bcoolwrx View Post
No, I have not seen any numbers on it. However, you should give Blouch a call and talk to Mike. He will help you choose the right turbo. But, the 20G-XTR seems like a great turbo and I think you will be pleased with it. I think it will spool like a 18G (maybe even better) and have about the same power (or a little more) as a regular 20G (non XT version).

I think the debate will be whether to get the 8cm or 10cm housing.
It sounds like a great turbo and I'll definitely give him a call...thanks!

If you wouldn't mind could you elaborate a little on the 8cm/10cm housing? I don't really know what that is/does/means...again I really appreciate the help!

Brett
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430 awhp 428 awtq
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#33 Old 05-21-2011, 01:13 PM
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8cm vs 10cm is the size of the exhaust housing. The smaller it is the quicker the turbo spools but the less top end it will have. Personally I would get the 10cm on the bb 20g on a 2.5L engine. Also, the 3" inles will allow the turbo to breathe a bit easier (think of drinking from a coffee stir vs mcdonalds straw). The 3" inles means you need to buy an aftermarket inlet and may need to delete the tgvs to get room for the larger inlet.

-Chris
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#34 Old 05-22-2011, 04:07 PM
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The sizing of your pistons and rings would be stock unless you get your short block bored. Its more of a question of what brand and the right forged metal then what size. There is some research needed and what prices that you want to spend. I can look it all up again. Chris is using a brand that I can't remember off the top of my head. I use CPs. Just don't get Mahles unless you don't want them to last for long on high horsepower.

E85 unregulation means that everytime you fill up with it. That the mix and exact octane could be different everytime. You'd have to basically make a tune for the lowest end mix to make sure its safe for every fill up. Which is kind of hard to do unless your tuner has a lot of experience with E85. The common flexfuel car has a OBD system that can change fueling based on the exact mix in the car at the time. Our car doesn't have that capability and it might be a real PITA to get it right for a while. OS, might let you tweak it with each fill up. You can test it with the test kit. But, if this is sounding like a PITA already. Then this is why some people don't run it.

I'll answer a couple things. Yes, the BB means it spools quicker and it could possibly be more efficent. Ask a tuner on his opinion on that. The 3' inlet means you have more air to play with. But, just like the 8 vs 10 arguement. The bigger exhaust housing and inlet can kill some spool up. It will get you gains in the high end though. Its a battle of what is more important to you. The coating could get you some advantages of keeping the under hood heat off the front of the intake side of the turbo pre intercooler. But, the exhaust side is still connected to the intake side of the turbo and the biggest source of heat is going to bleed through the ass end to the front side anyways. You can't stop that from happening. So, it might help some and be a bit of a bling mod at this point. Again do you think its necessary? There is a ton of research and questions in your head that you have to decide on which way do you want to go with your own car. Good luck man.

Kirt
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#35 Old 05-23-2011, 05:08 PM
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I would higly recommend forged pistons. I have coated CPs (custom spec; my tuner refuses to tell me the specs b/c he has them "special cut for him") and they are almost silent. Also, since the block is going to be pulled anyway some cams, valve springs, and retainers would do you wonders (i.e. Kelford 264/264s) and really allow you to hold power up top. The Kelford 264s really prevent that after 6000RPM drop off in WHP, while still keeping your lowend.

The risks of E85 were addressed by turnimic.

As for 3" vs 2.4" inlet and 8cm vs. 10cm....I think the inlet size depends on whether you want to do TGV deletes or not to go with the 3". As for the 8cm vs. 10cm, I don't think the 10cm hurts much at all. EVOs come with a 10cm 16G stock. I know it is something you are going to debate for awhile (I know I would), but in reality either will be good. Just consider the tradeoff a little more spool vs. a little more top end.

Just do it right the first time, as spending a bit more money now will save you money in the long run.
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#36 Old 05-23-2011, 08:01 PM
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That's the truth, I wish I would've did head work. Now, I'm contemplating pulling the engine again just to do it. Basically a waste of more time and money. It should've been done the first time. But, it would allow my car to breath better from the better cams, springs, and heads. Which is what would allow me to squeeze all the numbers out of my engine that I could.

Kirt
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#37 Old 05-23-2011, 08:13 PM
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Many people used to say cams would do nothing until you went 400whp+ and a bigger turbo, like a 30R or 35R. Now people are realizing a mild grind on the cams and ones with a lot of lift (basically the Kelford 264s) really makes a difference w/a 18G or 20G.

I almost did not get the Cams. But, my tuner (Gregg of MGM) started showing me dyno graphs of 18Gs and 20Gs on stock heads and the fall off and conviced me. After my dyno he overlayed a similar build to mine, but w/o the cams and my power was almost exactly the same. However, at about 5800-6000RPM the other car fell off badly and mine never had much of a fall off. Even after 7000RPM I am really only loosing like 20whp until my 7500 redline.
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#38 Old 05-23-2011, 08:46 PM
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I don't know why they'd think that. Cams are extremely helpful on N/A cars. So, why would it be any different for Forced Induction? They control how much air and fuel get into the cylinder. Which makes them extremely important. Granted, there is a lot of other things that you can do for more power. But, they shouldn't be ignored.

Kirt
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#39 Old 05-23-2011, 10:46 PM
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1. First and foremost I want to thank you guys for all the wonderful help/advice on everything and being so quick to respond to my questions....greatly appreciate it!!

Also, thank you for the great info on how to approach upgrading my block!

2. Need your advice once again. After doing some research, I'm really worried about blowing my transmission as I don't know the state of which its already in and thereby adding these power mods, is it going to put the icing on the cake (i.e. good by tranny)? I have $5500 cash to spend at my pleasure on mods but now am wondering where I should spend it?

If i put that money into upgrading my transmission (e.g. PPG gearset, STI swap) the time that I would have enough money to put into a turbo setup, i would probably be better off buying a new car due to mileage.

Is there anything I can do that isn't extremely expensive to further extend the life of my stock transmission other than driving like an *** hole, obviously?

Also, would it be worth the money to pull my transmission to see the current state of my gears and then go from there?

This just really ******* sucks as I've wanted to do a turbo upgrade for quite some time and now finally have the money saved up.

3. IYHO what would you do if you were me?

Brett
2006 WRX TR
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#40 Old 05-23-2011, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c2bcoolwrx View Post
Many people used to say cams would do nothing until you went 400whp+ and a bigger turbo, like a 30R or 35R. Now people are realizing a mild grind on the cams and ones with a lot of lift (basically the Kelford 264s) really makes a difference w/a 18G or 20G.

I almost did not get the Cams. But, my tuner (Gregg of MGM) started showing me dyno graphs of 18Gs and 20Gs on stock heads and the fall off and conviced me. After my dyno he overlayed a similar build to mine, but w/o the cams and my power was almost exactly the same. However, at about 5800-6000RPM the other car fell off badly and mine never had much of a fall off. Even after 7000RPM I am really only loosing like 20whp until my 7500 redline.
That's all in the tune. A 20G will hold to redline. I hit peak hp on my last setup with a 20G at 6,500 RPM.


Now that I'm going Dom3, I'm putting in GSC 272s (against my engine builder's advice of 264s).
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#41 Old 05-23-2011, 11:57 PM
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If your transmission isn't broken, don't fix it.



That's all in the tune. A 20G will hold to redline.

Now that I'm going Dom3, I'm putting in GSC 272s (against my engine builder's advice of 264s).
With a dom3 you could go either way with the cams. GSC cams have a lot of lift and from what I have read they are a lot like the Kelford's. So keep in mind the Kelford 264s have more lift than BC 272s and GSC 264s have almost as much lift as the Kelford. Tons of lift is what makes GSC and Kelford cams better than the rest.

Lastly, 264s are VERY nice for a DDer. 272s will give up a little driveabilty for top end.

OP Sorry for the partial thread jack in discussing someone else's build, but I figure more cam discussion is helpful regardless.
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#42 Old 05-24-2011, 12:17 AM
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With a dom3 you could go either way with the cams. GSC cams have a lot of lift and from what I have read they are a lot like the Kelford's. So keep in mind the Kelford 264s have more lift than BC 272s and GSC 264s have almost as much lift as the Kelford. Tons of lift is what makes GSC and Kelford cams better than the rest.

Lastly, 264s are VERY nice for a DDer. 272s will give up a little driveabilty for top end.

OP Sorry for the partial thread jack in discussing someone else's build, but I figure more cam discussion is helpful regardless.
Hey no worries and to my recent post...I'm just going to go with the original setup I had planned and if the tranny goes it goes and that is something I will deal with at that point in time.

So I'm going to go with the 20g-xtr as I would rather have quicker spool than more top end. I know a few posts back you had talked about the 8cm vs 10cm housing and that is something I'm still debating...what would you go with?

Brett
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#43 Old 05-24-2011, 08:01 AM
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Hey no worries and to my recent post...I'm just going to go with the original setup I had planned and if the tranny goes it goes and that is something I will deal with at that point in time.

So I'm going to go with the 20g-xtr as I would rather have quicker spool than more top end. I know a few posts back you had talked about the 8cm vs 10cm housing and that is something I'm still debating...what would you go with?
Well, I would talk to Mike at Blouch and then my tuner....But, I think probably the 10cm.
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#44 Old 05-24-2011, 03:35 PM
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10 cm if you want the most out of the turbo. You better be able to afford a transmission in 6 months if you baby it. Even a 3rd gear pull will put a lot of stress on the stock gears. Just definatly don't clutch dump it or shift it harder than it needs to be. That got a member by for about 6 or so months on our forums on his 07 wrx. But, he had to lower the boost before he left for deployment; because his stock clutch was slipping. His trans got upgraded to PPGs by the time he got back. He saw his gears when he picked up his car and was kind of glad they got switched out. I believe 3rd was seeing some stress and his clutch was definatly slipping before he took it in. Now, he enjoys the car a lot more. He is just rediculousy busy since he got back from deployment or he could chime in with his 2 cents. He also upgraded his clutch and flywheel with the new gears.

Kirt
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#45 Old 05-24-2011, 04:15 PM
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Update

Kirt,

Taked with Mike at Blouch and he told me to get the Dom 2.5 XTR. Here's what I have so far:

Parts On Hand:
-Deatschwerks 300lph fuel pump
-Injector Dynamics 1000cc
-STI splitter and bellows
-Grimmspeed EBCS 3-port-

Parts on Order:
-Blouch Dom 2.5 XTR 8cm housing
-TurboXS TMIC

My tuner said at our altitude of 5000ft that with the 10cm housing I wouldn't have spool until 48-55k and with the 8cm housing I would have spool around 33-35k.

So if I baby the hell out of my new set-up do you think I could get more than ~6 months? I hope to god so lol or I'm going to be riding my bicycle for quite some time !Laugh!

The parts will be installed next Wednesday and the protune on Thursday.

I'll keep you guys updated and will post my dyno once I have it

Can't wait!

Brett
2006 WRX TR
Dom 2.5 XT-R
430 awhp 428 awtq
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