Turbo Upgrade...please help - Page 2 - Subaru WRX Forum
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#16 Old 05-17-2011, 01:35 PM
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Like Kirt said. 38 or 44 mm is just the diameter of the wastegate valve. You still need to get the Tial gate or it'll just be an open pipe to the engine bay and that is quite counterproductive.

You can see how it all goes together on mine.



Gate sizing is also not what you think it would be. Bigger turbo can get by with a smaller gate, a smaller turbo usually needs a bigger gate. The reason for that is the bigger turbo needs more exhaust gas to drive it, so it needs to divert less gas around it. It's the opposite for the smaller turbo, it doesn't need as much gas to turn so it diverts more around it.

That's also not to say the car will run like crap if you have too big of a wastegate, it's definitely better to have a bigger gate than too small of a gate because then even if it's completely open you can still overboost.

That said, I run the 38mm on my VF52 and boost control is spot on. When I go to the Dom 3.0 XT-R I'm still keeping the 38mm because I'll need to divert even less exhaust gas than I do now.

-Chris
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#17 Old 05-17-2011, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by c2bcoolwrx View Post
Ok this is going to be some technical turbo talk, but stick with me here....

IMHO the FP 68HTA is not a good match for a 2.5L. The 68HTA is a 16G with a big billet turbine wheel crammed into it with an undersized TD05 housing. This really chockes it on the 2.5L and it is kind of like the cheaper TD05 housing 18Gs that SBR produces, which just don't produce as much power as an 18G in a TD06 housing (i.e. the Blouch 18G).

Many people will point you to numbers and dyno charts of the FP 68HTA vs. the 18G, but that does not tell the whole story. Noteable tuners on NASIOC have all said the same thing....Off boost response, area under the curve (useable power), and driveabilty are all better with an TD05H-18G 8cm (TD06 Housing). My local tuner has tuned quite a few 2.5L WRXs/STis with the FP 68HTA and Blouch TD05H-18g 8cm. He says numbers are always very close, but everytime he goes for a test drive the Blouch 18G just feels better on the street.

Also, by the time you pay to swap out the 7cm housing which the FP 68HTA comes with to an 8cm you might as well have gotten a Blouch TD05H-18G (which uses the true TD06 housing) or Blouch 18G-XT. Last, FP has stopped producing the 68HTA and they are no longer available for sale new.

Do your homework, search some threads on NASIOC the info is all there. Just make sure to get an 8cm exhaust side as that is a MUST for a 2.5L and really lets it breath.

Edit:

EWG while good is unnessary for a DDer. 8cm and a good tune and you will not have any issues with creep. IMHO EWGs are loud and obnoxious (yes I know t is only when you get on it), but our cars are loud enough as it is. Also, I have been running a Blouch TD05H-18G 8cm since '08 on my 5-speed (EJ257 Hybrid swap). My frist tune at 16PSI (had for about 2 years) made 320whp/288wtrq and my current tune at 19PSI (last 6-7 months or so) makes 332whp/338wtrq. Both tunes are for 93 octane.

Finally, 750cc injectors are not going to be enough for E85. You will need at least 850ccs if not 1000s. I would definitely discuss this with your tuner and do what he recommends.
So I've searched NASIOC quite some time and have read many threads over the last few days and am about threaded out lol. Definitely am on the verge of information overload !Laugh!

Anyways did some more research on NASIOC and saw how people did say the FP 68HTA is a bit small for the 2.5L...thank you for bringing that to my attention!

So to be more clear on what I'm looking for:
-Fast spool...around 3-3.5K
-330whp/340wtq (basically what you're running right now) + room for growth (e.g. 400whp)
-Definitely bigger injectors...what is your guy's opinion on DW 1000cc vs ID 1000cc injectors?

My car is a daily driver and I love to drive in the canyons. I don't autoX or track my car.

I'll be using 91 octane as I don't believe many places here in CO have 93 octane. I also plan on getting an E85 tune as well.

I just want an awesome turbo setup with room for growth...I plan on this being my only turbo swap for this car as I'm already at 65K.

Therefore would the Blouch 20G-XT be a suitable turbo? Does it have the true TD06 housing?

Brett
2006 WRX TR
Dom 2.5 XT-R
430 awhp 428 awtq
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#18 Old 05-17-2011, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by turmic View Post
The upgrade that you are talking about is the actual part that makes the UP EWG. So, yeah you are going to want a Tial Wastegate. Its up to you which size you want, but my tuner put a 44mm on mine because he said with my Cobb DP and how the CAT is further down the tube. That the CAT not being in the way there was extra room for the 44mm. With other set-ups it might be hard to squeeze a 44mm in there. I have my EWG recirculated because I didn't want to hear the EWG. Its not necessary on a DD, but it can help. If I had head work then I probably would not have done it. Head work might be in my future though. If I can ever fight the mod bug...lol.

The advise so far is very good from everyone.
Thanks Kirt and Chris for bringing that to my attention...I had no idea that it would just be an open pipe to the engine bay w/o the Tial wastegate. Learn something new everyday!

I'm going to talk with my tuner, of which I'm in the process of waiting to hear back from and see what he says would about which wastegate size would work best for my turbo setup.

I agree Kirt...the advice has been great and I can't thank you guys enough!

Brett
2006 WRX TR
Dom 2.5 XT-R
430 awhp 428 awtq
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#19 Old 05-17-2011, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by RcrsWetDream View Post
Like Kirt said. 38 or 44 mm is just the diameter of the wastegate valve. You still need to get the Tial gate or it'll just be an open pipe to the engine bay and that is quite counterproductive.

You can see how it all goes together on mine.



Gate sizing is also not what you think it would be. Bigger turbo can get by with a smaller gate, a smaller turbo usually needs a bigger gate. The reason for that is the bigger turbo needs more exhaust gas to drive it, so it needs to divert less gas around it. It's the opposite for the smaller turbo, it doesn't need as much gas to turn so it diverts more around it.

That's also not to say the car will run like crap if you have too big of a wastegate, it's definitely better to have a bigger gate than too small of a gate because then even if it's completely open you can still overboost.

That said, I run the 38mm on my VF52 and boost control is spot on. When I go to the Dom 3.0 XT-R I'm still keeping the 38mm because I'll need to divert even less exhaust gas than I do now.
Thanks for the pics Chris...I appreciate it! Also thanks for the great info on wastegate sizing.

So IYHO what turbo would you go for if you were me (look 2 replys up).

Thanks!!!

Brett
2006 WRX TR
Dom 2.5 XT-R
430 awhp 428 awtq
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#20 Old 05-17-2011, 03:58 PM
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Sadly the fastest spooling turbo that will make 330whp/340tq that could be pushed to 400whp with E85. Would either by my turbo the Dom 2.5XT-R rated at 490 crank or the Blouch 20G-XT rated at 470 crank. The difference being the Dom 2.5XT-R is ball bearing and that helps spool up over thrust bearing turbos. Btw, you will need a butt load of money to get what your aiming for too. If you do a engine build, just get head and cam work done. I'm regretting it now and now I'm contemplating going backwards and doing headwork. Which will require the engine to be pulled again.

Btw, that's basically max crank hp figures that blouch came up with. Idk if they have a engine dyno or not. I tried to take a tour of the shop and was blindly shut down at the front desk by one of the blouch boys. They fear that shop secrets will get released with public traffic, photos being released, and insurance reasons that they don't want public by standers to get hurt.

All that I know is that Mike Blouch runs a Dom 3.0 on his car. My tuner has worked on his car and I didn't pry further to see if it was the upgraded Dom 3.0 or not.

Kirt
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Last edited by turmic; 05-17-2011 at 07:35 PM.
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#21 Old 05-17-2011, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
So I've searched NASIOC quite some time and have read many threads over the last few days and am about threaded out lol. Definitely am on the verge of information overload !Laugh!

Anyways did some more research on NASIOC and saw how people did say the FP 68HTA is a bit small for the 2.5L...thank you for bringing that to my attention!

So to be more clear on what I'm looking for:
-Fast spool...around 3-3.5K
-330whp/340wtq (basically what you're running right now) + room for growth (e.g. 400whp)
-Definitely bigger injectors...what is your guy's opinion on DW 1000cc vs ID 1000cc injectors?

My car is a daily driver and I love to drive in the canyons. I don't autoX or track my car.

I'll be using 91 octane as I don't believe many places here in CO have 93 octane. I also plan on getting an E85 tune as well.

I just want an awesome turbo setup with room for growth...I plan on this being my only turbo swap for this car as I'm already at 65K.

Therefore would the Blouch 20G-XT be a suitable turbo? Does it have the true TD06 housing?
My tuner genrally uses DW Injectors, but I have heard a lot of good reports on the IDs so you really cannot go wrong (get whatever your tuner prefers). For 3-3.5K spool I think you are looking at the TD05H-18G 8cm, 18G-XT, and possibly the DOM 2.5XTR. I have heard the 20G-XT is a bit more laggy, but not bad. However, lag is really not much of an issue on the 2.5L.

Yes, the 20G-XT uses the TD06 housing (don't think you could fit a 20G wheel into a TD05 compressor housing). All Blouch turbos bigger than the 16G do.

You must also consider your tranny, 5-speeds and too much power don't mix. So be carefull with that E85. Even w/an TD05H-18G 8cm think you will have room to grow. During my first or 2nd run on the dyno my tuner was just figuring out the settings for EBCS (first time he was using the Grimmspeed Unit, really liked it by the way) and had the boost at around 24PSI. The car put down 375wtrq (don't remember the WHP, but he sut it down before 5K RPM) So I would say the 18G has room to grow. He then dialed it back to a more conservative tune. But, he saved that map just in case I want/need to upgrade the tranny.
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#22 Old 05-17-2011, 04:30 PM
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Sadly the fastest spooling turbo that will make 330whp/340tq that could be pushed to 400whp with E85. Would either by my turbo the Dom 2.5XT-R rated at 490 crank or the Blouch 20G-XT rated at 470 crank. The difference being the Dom 2.5XT-R is ball bearing and that helps spool up over thrust bearing turbos. Btw, you will need a junk of money to get what your aiming for too. If you do a engine build, just get head and cam work done. I'm regretting it now and now I'm contemplating going backwards and doing headwork. Which will require the engine to be pulled again.

Btw, that's basically max crank hp figures that blouch came up with. Idk if they have a engine dyno or not. I tried to take a tour of the shop and was blindly shut down at the front desk by one of the blouch boys. They fear that shop secrets will get released with public traffic, photos being released, and insurance reasons that they don't want public by standers to get hurt.

All that I know is that Mike Blouch runs a Dom 3.0 on his car. My tuner has worked on his car and I didn't pry further to see if it was the upgraded Dom 3.0 or not.
Kirt--- I need to do my research on engine rebuilds as I honestly don't know very much. Therefore what are your recommendations for the type of work (specifics) that I would need to have done and what are some ballpark price ranges for that work?

How do you like the Dom 2.5XT-R? Are you happy with your setup?

Brett
2006 WRX TR
Dom 2.5 XT-R
430 awhp 428 awtq
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#23 Old 05-17-2011, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by c2bcoolwrx View Post
My tuner genrally uses DW Injectors, but I have heard a lot of good reports on the IDs so you really cannot go wrong (get whatever your tuner prefers). For 3-3.5K spool I think you are looking at the TD05H-18G 8cm, 18G-XT, and possibly the DOM 2.5XTR. I have heard the 20G-XT is a bit more laggy, but not bad. However, lag is really not much of an issue on the 2.5L.

Yes, I the 20G-XT uses the TD06 housing (don't think you could fit a 20G wheel into a TD05 compressor housing). All Blouch turbos bigger than the 16G do.

You must also consider your tranny, and 5-speeds too much power don't mix. So be carefull with that E85.
Ya, I'm starting to consider going with the 20G-XT or the Dom 2.5 XT-R. What do you think about the FP HTA Green?

I know and that's something I'm somewhat worried about is my tranny but I'm sure my tuner should have some good input about that.

I'm also considering selling my car and just getting an STI and starting back from square 1 lol.

Brett
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Dom 2.5 XT-R
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#24 Old 05-17-2011, 04:44 PM
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Thanks for the pics Chris...I appreciate it! Also thanks for the great info on wastegate sizing.

So IYHO what turbo would you go for if you were me (look 2 replys up).

Thanks!!!
20g-xt or the new 20g-xtr if you want BB. 20g-xt is 47 lb/min, 20g-xtr is 44 lb/min so a bit smaller.

-Chris
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#25 Old 05-17-2011, 04:56 PM
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Ya, I'm starting to consider going with the 20G-XT or the Dom 2.5 XT-R. What do you think about the FP HTA Green?

I know and that's something I'm somewhat worried about is my tranny but I'm sure my tuner should have some good input about that.

I'm also considering selling my car and just getting an STI and starting back from square 1 lol.
FP HTA Green is a similar turbo, but I prefer anything Blouch offers. Blouch has better customer service and better product quality IMHO. Not that FP is bad, I have just heard of a few more issues with them. Also, when I was looking at turbos I called FP and left messages but never got a response. When I called Blouch, Mike spent over 30 minutes explaining EVERYTHING to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RcrsWetDream View Post
20g-xt or the new 20g-xtr if you want BB. 20g-xt is 47 lb/min, 20g-xtr is 44 lb/min so a bit smaller.
OOoo 20G-XTR...I didn't know they had a BB 20G. Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner...I think that will perfect for the OP.
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#26 Old 05-17-2011, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
Kirt--- I need to do my research on engine rebuilds as I honestly don't know very much. Therefore what are your recommendations for the type of work (specifics) that I would need to have done and what are some ballpark price ranges for that work?

How do you like the Dom 2.5XT-R? Are you happy with your setup?
It would really depend on your money range and how built you want to go. You can get a shortblock and then upgrade it slowly like chris is doing or you can go my route and pay someone else to do it. Which costs more and the same can be said with pulling the engine and swapping it yourself or having someone else do it. I didn't have the time to slowly do it and at the time my car was my daily driver. So, I paid to have a short block built and had my tuner install it. Granted I had the money to do it to because it was not cheap. My tuner recommended me to at least do the pistons and rings if I was going to get to the 350whp or tq range. I got the whole short block upgraded: rods, bearings, forged crankshaft, forged pistons, and new rings. Which I'm now at 350 whp and over 350 tq. He said its mostly the tq and it will stress the stock pistons and rings at that point. The money is going to depend on which route you want to go. I'd worry more about your transmission before the engine though. Trading in for a STI is your call. A lot of guys like to tough it out and say their upgraded WRXs can put up the big numbers like STI. Which they can, it just takes a little more work to get it done. I like all the addition add-ons the STI has over the WRX.

c2bcoolwrx keeps forgetting to mention that he has head work on his hybrid set-up. So, his car is making very good numbers on a 18G.


The Dom 2.5XT-R is 49 lbs/min and BB. Just in case anyone forgot. I am happy with how quick my tq and hp come on. But, the numbers game always has me searching for more power and tq. Like I said, I might go backwards to get heads that are P&P, upgraded springs, valves, and cams. Probably also getting a custom FMIC built from my tuner's fabricator. That'd pretty much finish my car off without getting a bigger turbo. Which I doubt I'd ever do because I don't want lag. Plus, I won't run meth or E85. Unless I could get my tuner convinced to do it. Which seems like a snowballs chance in hell because of how unregulated E85 is.

Kirt
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#27 Old 05-17-2011, 08:28 PM
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c2bcoolwrx keeps forgetting to mention that he has head work on his hybrid set-up. So, his car is making very good numbers on a 18G.
True, but the only head work I have is Kelford 264/264 cams w/upgraded valve springs and retainers (the Kelfords have a TON of lift). They do help me make over 300whp past 7000RPM though and allow me to spin up to 7500RPM.
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#28 Old 05-18-2011, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c2bcoolwrx View Post
True, but the only head work I have is Kelford 264/264 cams w/upgraded valve springs and retainers (the Kelfords have a TON of lift). They do help me make over 300whp past 7000RPM though and allow me to spin up to 7500RPM.
Even without P&P its a lot more than what I have. Mark the mechanic at my tuner says he has seen a 25-50whp jumps in just head work. Depending on what kind of head work.

Kirt
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#29 Old 05-21-2011, 10:35 AM
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20g-xt or the new 20g-xtr if you want BB. 20g-xt is 47 lb/min, 20g-xtr is 44 lb/min so a bit smaller.
So I'm really intrigued by the 20g-xtr. I've tried to do some research on it but since its so new I can't really find much. Do you have any good info on it, or know anyone who is currently using it?

Brett
2006 WRX TR
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430 awhp 428 awtq
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#30 Old 05-21-2011, 10:44 AM
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So I'm really intrigued by the 20g-xtr. I've tried to do some research on it but since its so new I can't really find much. Do you have any good info on it, or know anyone who is currently using it?
No, I have not seen any numbers on it. However, you should give Blouch a call and talk to Mike. He will help you choose the right turbo. But, the 20G-XTR seems like a great turbo and I think you will be pleased with it. I think it will spool like a 18G (maybe even better) and have about the same power (or a little more) as a regular 20G (non XT version).

I think the debate will be whether to get the 8cm or 10cm housing.
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