Cobb numbers for Stage 1, 2007 WRX - Page 2 - Subaru WRX Forum
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#16 Old 08-24-2008, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnot View Post
Really? Then perhaps you can help explain the following graphic:

http://www.cobbtuning.com/images_products/3161.jpg

That curve is a beauty, practically all the harsh changes in slope have been smoothed (which takes "dyno time" and "dyno money" as previously stated). Most importantly the greatest gains in torque are from 2500rpm to 3200rpm...exactly where the stock tune has a built-in "wheeze" (where the rate at which torque increases actually lags before it...ah, those who've taken calculus will understand, as will those who are driving stock setups).

Anyway there are points in this rpm range where torque has increased over 10%!!! This is going to be especially appreciated when trying to accelerate from 15-20mph in 2nd gear (turning right at an intersection?), or from 30-35mph in 3rd, or trying to pass on a smaller highway cruising in 4th or a larger highway/freeway cruising in 5th. I would happily pay $700 to increase the performance (and efficiency) of my car in the rpm band that gets used approx 80% of the time. But I'll admit that is one man's opinion and I do not have any COBB equipment...


Comparing peak numbers is literally like comparing the tips of two different icebergs...what's underneath the surface is going to be completely different. :

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#17 Old 08-25-2008, 02:12 PM
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Also you have to take into account the fact that the AP is a module that is designed for 50 State compliance. It is an off the shelf programmer. You WILL be able to do it cheaper, but you WILL NOT be able to do it easier. People like to pay for convenience. That is why a gallon of milk is more expensive at the corner store than it is at the super market. The Cobb AP is a device that will allow you to flash to "Stage 1" and then once you install more parts, you will be able to very easily plug in your AP and flash to a different "Stage" in a matter of minutes. Please remember that all of these tunes are quite conservative to allow 50 State Compliance. You will be able to get more out of the car if you do open source for sure. There are several reasons for this: 1. It will be vehicle specific, as it has been said here already, no 2 vehicles will accept mods the same way. 2. It will be area specific, i.e. your altitude and all the atmospheric conditions that go into tuning. 3. You will spend a lot of time dialing everything in, but this is the hard part. It is time consuming and you have to know what you are doing.

Now for the matter at hand... The discrepancies that you are talking about. sleepr is right. The curve has been smoothed and there are areas that the tuners at Cobb decided to beef up. They put the peaks in a different spot as they thought that is where the car was lacking. There are spots where there is a greater increase %-wise than others. But due to the averaging out of all of that info, you get a 13% overall increase. It you want a curve that looks like the the White Cliffs of the Dover Coast, and focus on peak HP, you can sure do that, but Cobb did not want that. They are a business and they are in the business of making things EASY, and desirable.

I am not an expert on tuning. I am an expert in business. Cobb carved a niche out of being the easiest tuning product, offering their customers the least downtime out of ANY other tuning software out there. Also the easiest to upgrade out there as well.
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#18 Old 08-25-2008, 03:55 PM
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OP: From what I have gathered; Basically the AP stage1 doesn't increase much PEAK hp, sure I get your point. But what it DOES DO is make your car run a hell of a lot smoother and more efficient. If you take a WRX without the AP and the same WRX WITH the AP, then the AP WRX will be faster (under same conditions) The AP gives you more reliable USEABLE power. It gives you more torque gains so you don't need to downshift twice on the freeway to pass a car (unlike a honda) My Jetta has an ishload of torque/weight so I can leave it in 5th gear on the main street with traffic going like 25-30mph and it still doesnt lugg at all. The AP will give you more useable torque for accelerating and daily driving, but not so much PEAK hp for racing around at high-rpms.

The keywords for this topic are USEABLE POWER.......

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#19 Old 08-25-2008, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnot View Post
13% (the horsepower increase that Cobb quotes for Stage 1 on an '07 WRX) of 165 hp (the factory "at the wheels" estimate) is not 0.04 hp, the number Cobb lists on their dynograph for the power increase at the wheels. It should be more like 21.5 hp. 13% is 13%, irrespective of any parasitic drivetrain losses factored in. This applies for torque as well...instead of 7.1 lb-ft, it should be more like 46 lb-ft (28% increase, again according to their map notes).
Just talking about the veracity/consistency of their own data. Any one care to put their pride aside and talk numbers for a change? You'd think this was a Cobb forum...

Last edited by mosc; 10-08-2008 at 09:39 AM.
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#20 Old 08-26-2008, 01:47 PM
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I know this has nothing to do with the post, but awd4life,excellent comparison and explaination (even though I was already sold ((and bought)) an AP).

Joshua
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#21 Old 08-26-2008, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Just talking about the veracity/consistency of their own data. Any one care to put their pride aside and talk numbers for a change? You'd think this was a Cobb forum...

I don't think they really can be considered comparable, until one knows that there does not exist any significant discrepancies between the specific testing conditions for each set of statistics. !Notfunny!

...your first post references a 93 octane tune. The COBB graph does not state even that, specifically. That already arouses suspicion for me.

Matt
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#22 Old 08-26-2008, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepr View Post
I don't think they really can be considered comparable, until one knows that there does not exist any significant discrepancies between the specific testing conditions for each set of statistics. !Notfunny!

...your first post references a 93 octane tune. The COBB graph does not state even that, specifically. That already arouses suspicion for me.

Cobb claims a 5 hp difference in their map notes between 91 and 93 octane; and if indeed there are any variables between their different testing environments, they shouldn't publish two sets of results. Or should they? I'd like to know what I'm actually buying, maybe some don't.
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#23 Old 10-08-2008, 01:26 AM
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My Apology.

I was trying to convey that I have been down both roads, with multiple cars. One being the open source option, and the second being an APV2. I have an APV2 now, you were correct in making the statement. However, for the two years before getting the AP I was using opensource for dynotuning, and it always made me nervous, and the nervousness came from lack of overall knowledge, which i have a little of now, and want to convey to you this: I hate it when our members in the Subaru community step into something that might hurt themselves, or their cars mostly. I have known of quite a few people using opensource with great results. That is great for them, I just want every to do their home work first, and then start tuning on your own, by what ever measures you have at your disposal.

Thanks Guys

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#24 Old 11-12-2008, 10:22 AM
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The wrx is engineered to run with the stock parameters. Even the stock cars have a huge standard deviation. When you start modding, this deviation from car to car increases greatly. MORAL: its POINTLESS to compare and analyze numbers from car to car. Cobb would have to compile a huge set of data with many different wrxs with all variables held constant (good luck with this cobb). Therefore, I would not put too much stock into cobbs numbers and focus on the long term purpose of the tuning device you plan on purchasing. Some will respond greatly to their maps, some wrx owners will notice less of an impact. Dyno your stocker, mod...then dyno on the SAME dyno again. This is the only real way to have a sense of what you are gaining. If you only plan on running stage 1 or 2 the AP may not be worth it imo (stage 2 definately yielded me noticeable gains). Having your tuners make you a custom map to accommodate more mods such as a bigger turbo is a different story. In this case it would be worth it to purchase the AP imo. Decide where you want to go with the car first. Just my 2 cents. I agree with awd4lifes explanation about convenience as well.

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#25 Old 11-12-2008, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepr View Post
That curve is a beauty, practically all the harsh changes in slope have been smoothed (which takes "dyno time" and "dyno money" as previously stated). Most importantly the greatest gains in torque are from 2500rpm to 3200rpm...exactly where the stock tune has a built-in "wheeze" (where the rate at which torque increases actually lags before it...ah, those who've taken calculus will understand, as will those who are driving stock setups).
Anyway there are points in this rpm range where torque has increased over 10%!!! This is going to be especially appreciated when trying to accelerate from 15-20mph in 2nd gear (turning right at an intersection?), or from 30-35mph in 3rd, or trying to pass on a smaller highway cruising in 4th or a larger highway/freeway cruising in 5th. I would happily pay $700 to increase the performance (and efficiency) of my car in the rpm band that gets used approx 80% of the time. But I'll admit that is one man's opinion and I do not have any COBB equipment...


Comparing peak numbers is literally like comparing the tips of two different icebergs...what's underneath the surface is going to be completely different. :
+1 People get too wrapped up in peak #'s.Who cares what Cobb's #'s say.If their data doesn't make you happy,don't use thier product.You have plenty of other options.

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