today i was coasting to a stop while taking off my flip flops....i instinctively went from 3rd to neutral. then i realized i didn't have my foot on the clutch because i was taking off my shoes. this kind of worried me. so i tried it again. i tired it in 2nd, 3rd and 4th and it happened in each gear. i didn't do anything abusive, just applied a little pressure and it popped out of gear (with clutch fully engaged). this has never happened without me doing it (it never just pops out of gear itself, which happened on my old g20).
i also remember a few weeks ago when i was rev-matching to downshift to second, i didn't have the clutch in and was applying a little pressure downward on the shifter and when i hit the right revs it just slid into gear, clutch still engaged. none of these occurences seem to be hurting anything, no wierd noises or anything like that.
it made me think my shifter was sloppy though. i have front shifter bushings but i can move the shifter back and forth (front to back) maybe 3/8in. i got under the car and found that the gear shift rod (connects to shifter shaft and goes into tranny) moves in and out of the tranny about 3/8in. it doesn't matter if it's in gear or neutral.
i know it's a lot of info but i'm not too versed in tranny stuff so i'm trying to explain it well. should i be worried? is something going bad?
First off, you shouldn't be coasting in neutral to a stop. but there are plenty of downshift and double clutch threads on here already so ill leave that up to you.
To answer your direct question, no. taking the car out of gear without using the clutch is not an issue. it might be a little painful if the shift leaver resists, but under most conditions it should come out fairly effortlessly.
The rev-matched downshift is supposed to work as you described it. if not for those pesky synchros you would have no resistance given your revs are =. essentially you are doing the clutches job for it by making two sets of components rotate at the same speed before they connect.
If it starts popping itself out of gear, or you feel a lot of play while in gear, then there is cause for alarm.
Last edited by mosc : 05-12-2008 at 09:16 PM.
Reason: NN, watch your spelling/caps FFS -mosc
cool man, thanks for the assurance. i figured that it was probably ok, especially the rev match issue (or non-issue). i just know about the theory behind the whole machine, not specifically the precise mechanics of it all.
and i don't know why you say i SHOULDN'T be coasting to a stop in neutral. some of us just choose to save gas, reduce clutch use, reduce strain on the drivetrain, etc. i know how to rev-match (as i was talking about in my original post). i also know how to double clutch and have practiced them both plenty. but i get brake pads for free so i'm going to stick with coasting in neutral.
not trying to be a shit, but do you really downshift all the way to first when you're coming to a red light? not saying there's anything wrong with that. the more practice the better i guess....maybe i'm just lazy.
first, you should realize that NN knows more about this than you. Second, you should learn what your fuel system and transmission are actually doing when the car's in neutral. You will save gas by leaving it in gear and it will also be easier on your drivetrain.
When you put it in neutral at a high speed, the ECU immediately starts throwing more fuel in. You can see this if you log the car. The LEAST gas for any speed is when the car is in gear and the gas petal is not depressed. Also, this saves brakes because the car will naturally slow down. It is true that this does wear slightly more on certain parts of the tranny BUT...
When you put the car in neutral from some significant speed, the drivetrain is still spinning. The transmission does not stop instantaniously, it has a lot of inertia. If you then come to a stop and want to put it into first, this is a MAJOR change of speeds for the still spinning transmission which is not good for it. If you had left it in gear, it would slow down on it's own until you got nearer to 0mph. Then, it's much less of a shock when you switch into gear. AWD trannies break more out of shock load than wear so this is the more significant wear to worry about IMHO.
Basically NN is telling you that you're doing something stupid that's costing you money and hurting your transmission and you're telling him he's a jerk...
When you put it in neutral at a high speed, the ECU immediately starts throwing more fuel in. You can see this if you log the car. The LEAST gas for any speed is when the car is in gear and the gas petal is not depressed. Also, this saves brakes because the car will naturally slow down.
Yah this is very true, even though it seems like neutral should save you the most gas.
i'm not trying to be a jerk. sorry it was taken that way. and i also said that i don't know much about this. yes, i thought you'd save gas by idling, and i guess i was wrong. is this because when in gear the wheels keep the engine turning so the fuel system doesn't have to give as much fuel as when youre in neutral and the engine has to use fuel to keep it spinning at 750rpm because the tranny's not helping out?
also, i get what your saying about putting it in first when you've been coasting in neutral being bad because you're tranny is still spinning fast and putting it in gear slows it down very quickly. but when i shift into first at a stop it sure doesn't feel like im doing any shock loading. i'm very easy on my tranny, i never force it into gear, i let it do what it wants. if iit slips right in, that's great, if not, i try again. the force felt when you drop the clutch(which i don't do) or when you immediately lift off the clutch after shifting and not rev matching is what i thought shock loading to be. i'm willing to hear that i'm wrong. i do want to learn.
one thing im still curious about, is it normal for the gear shift rod to slide in and out of the tranny a little or should there be no play there?
NN, i beg your forgiveness. i never for a second thought i knew more about this than you. i just thought coasting and downshifting were 2 different philosophies and never knew there were advantages to downshifting.
i know i'm an ass, just trying to redeem myself hahhaha. thanks guys.
well, hopefully NN will post a better explanation. My understanding isn't as good as his but basically you're right about the neutral gas. Maintaining idle takes more gas when you don't have the car's inertia turning the engine.
You're not following me though on the tranny. If I'm going 45mph in 4th gear, the tranny is spinning pretty quick. If I put it in neutral and coast all the way to zero, the tranny is still spinning pretty much as fast as it was when I was still going 45mph. By taking it out of gear, I removed the connection between the tranny and the engine. Now when I want to put it in first (keep in mind I'm at a complete stop), the tranny has to RAPIDLY slow down. This is shock loading.
i think i follow you, i'm just surprised. i'm learning what shock loading is (it's also dumping the clutch right?) but like i said i'm just surprised because it doesn't feel like i'm doing anything harmful when i shift into first at a stop, even if i coasted in neutral from 45mph. it actually feels very smooth. but i guess it could be shock loading that i just can't feel. thanks for letting me know it's not good though.
no worries colo, but to answer your first reply question yes, i double clutch down shift to first every single time i come to a complete stop. i dont do it BECAUSE im going to make a complete stop, i do it because my speed dictates the gear i should be in. i rarely if ever just leave the car in neutral, its in gear 99% of the time. even still, its not even thought about or practiced at this point its just the way i drive. i cant help it.
Fuel:
Mosc nailed this one. shifting out of gear at any reasonable speed is going to scare the computer and probably start adding fuel.
clutch:
double clutch downshfting does not use the clutch. so there is no wear, as long as your doing it right. (thats why we rev match, to do the clutches job for it, remember?) your still using the peddle, and actuating the clutch but but the clutch disk is not really 'doing' anything.
drivetrain:
just think about that one for a second. your blipping the throttle to ~3-4K. where do you shift under hard acceleration? 6-7K. no wear there. no-throttle load on the trans as your coasting is not more wear then hard acceleration. however, as stated above it is LESS wear then removing all load from a spinning trans.
brakes:
you might get pads for free but there is a bunch of other stuff that is used every time you apply them. and having them do all the work puts wear on all those components. for a frame of reference, im at 33K miles on my original pads and components.
shockloading:
ive never even heard the term tbqh. but, the trans does not spin free like a bearing. there is fluid in there and the components are not super heavy. so even if you pulled out of gear at 45mph and used brakes only to a complete stop under normal driving conditions, chances are the trans is back to its idle speed. however, if during your braking you realized the semi truck behind you is not going to stop in time you might have issues getting back into an appropriate gear quickly without an adequate blip.
dumping the clutch puts stupid amounts of shock on the trans. this is not your neighbors civic, the grip provided by 4 good size tires is not to be trifled with. its pointless anyway as its just going to bog the whimpy 230hp anyway.
essentially what it comes down to is the car is designed to be in gear. its always better to be in gear, weather you accelerating, coasting, or braking. that means no neutral, and only having the clutch engaged for more then a few seconds unless at a complete stop.
haha, i accidentally seem to have given you rep after reading moscs post but not getting to yours yet. being an asshole myself i don't think i've recieved any rep yet.
thanks for all the detailed info. i was thinking that my trans was back at idle speed when i shift back to first at a red light or something considering how smooth and easy it feels. i must admit that after reading your post i got back into double clutching today. its getting smoother but i must say i was a little out of practice. i know when you're perfectly rev matched your clutch isn't doing any "work", but doesn't depressing the pedal wear out the throw out bearing (eventually)? again i admit i don't know what the throw out bearing is or does, i've just heard that before.
i know braking is hard on a lot of things. i'm also at 33k, but on my fourth set or front and second set of rear pads. i have cheapo pads, but i don't think most of my wear is due to braking to every stoplight. it's due to the somewhat frequent HARD braking i do when i'm driving spiritedly. i love speeding, but only for a few seconds before i get back to the speed limit as quickly as possible.
maybe all my braking has to do with the fact that now both my a-pillars are rattling as i drive. it's just the plastics, but i'm sure i could use more frame bracing. been looking into fender cowls for a while now. and i know i'm wearing shocks and struts too.
sooo...when you're driving you downshift to your next gear when you're around the 3-4k rpm speed for that next gear? and then you finally disengage the clutch and brake to a stop when you're about to bog in first gear? i'll be trying it.
and yes, dumping the clutch is stupid. lots of fun in my 87 prelude, but pretty painful in the rex. unless you have 600hp and can spin all 4 tires all day long....and even then it's no good for anything mechanical and only for show.
double clutch down shifting is not going to put any kind of noticeable extra wear on the trans or clutch components. just do your normal maintenance stuff and you will be fine.
i always speed. always. i dont feel right if i cant cruise on the freeway at 80. thats any freeway, even stupid ass 55mph 880 over here. its not quick hard brakes that burn pads its constant braking.
how do brakes, rattling plastic covers, and frame bracing connect? you lost me on that one.
no, i down shift when im at about 2-2.5K, i BLIP to 3-4K. all depends though. i don't ever look at the tac i just do it when i feel i need to do it.
ok, well i guess my frequent braking is hurting me. yeah i'm sure i speed much more than i'd like to think. i've had too many tickets for it to be worth it anymore though. the cops have a lot better things to do in cali than they do here...i spent a few years there and 80 was just the normal cruising speed for traffic on any freeway. it's not so good here, and driver's suck, but i have a valentine one so that helps.
my point about all those seemingly unconnected parts was that my hard driving (not just braking, but that's a part of it) loosen up the car. from my experience japanese cars "loosen up" over there lifetimes more than other brands. i've only owned japanese cars and wouldn't have it any other way but they all develop some creaks and groans eventually. thank god they sell more structural stiffening mods for the wrx than i could ever afford......i see how that made no sense at all in my last post. i just write my thoughts and expect everyone to understand what's going on in my messed up head.
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