Why upgrade your brakes? - Page 3 - Subaru WRX Forum
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #31 of 242 Old 04-07-2006, 03:07 PM
WRXtuners Member
 
Nose Nuggets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: California
Posts: 2,157
Nose Nuggets is known to be trustworthy and helpful Nose Nuggets is known to be trustworthy and helpful
Quote:
Originally Posted by eighth08
i will PM you sometime about it.
sounds good.
Nose Nuggets is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 242 Old 04-08-2006, 01:13 AM
WRXtuners Member
 
jwtarbaj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,344
Images: 11
jwtarbaj is more helpful than not
Send a message via AIM to jwtarbaj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nose Nuggets
The brake components have a HUGE influence on aspects of braking. Just not the rate of slowdown. They effect brake bias and things like that.

If you wana buy me a brake kit and come out here and do some tests, im down. Ill do brake test until im blue in the face.

On the 20 foot thing, the .2 second difference is IMPOSIBLE to remove with a human driver in the seat. What im saying is there test is not accurate enough. If you ran every brake set they tested 20 times each, there would be no difference in distance. They would all have overlapping stopping distances.

Food for thought: the Dodge Viper RT/10 has the shortest stopping distance of the i think 20 cars tested in one issue of car&driver/road&track. They put it up against a Porsche with the crazy half rotor calipers. And the rt/10 out broke it. How? You ask, could a car weighing at least 800 pounds more with smaller brake components slow down in less distance? because the rear tires are absolute enormous.
Had you actually read the article you may have caught this

"After installing a kit and bleeding the system, we first performed three stops from 40 mph to test effectiveness when cold. Next we performed three of our usual stops from 70 to 0 mph. To test fade resistance, we let the brakes cool to ambient temperature and then did 25 stops from 90 mph with a time interval of 22 seconds between each stop. Finally, to get a feel for each system's pedal effort and modulation, we let the brakes cool again, disabled the ABS by removing the fuse, and performed a series of stops from 70 mph."

Yes it says 25 stops from 90 and they posted the average. If you read on they could only muster 4 stops from the stock rotors b4 they felt it was too much fade to be safe. It also states it's first stop on stock brakes was 9 to 20 feet longer than the average of all the BBKs. That is considerable because the BBKs are averaged from 25 stops and would have been very hot.

We all understand tires are important but the fact remains a proper set of larger brakes will stop a car shorter if you have good enough rubber to keep it from being the limiting factor.

You are not being open minded but just spouting your idea of how things are. StopTech is not God and neither are your co-worker race instructors. Everyone is wrong sometimes so deal.
jwtarbaj is offline  
post #33 of 242 Old 04-08-2006, 12:41 PM
WRXtuners Member
 
Nose Nuggets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: California
Posts: 2,157
Nose Nuggets is known to be trustworthy and helpful Nose Nuggets is known to be trustworthy and helpful
So what? Its more likely StopTech and me and my pro buddies are wrong? As apposed to a a group of WRX owners and some magazine writers?

Sure.
Nose Nuggets is offline  
post #34 of 242 Old 04-09-2006, 12:47 AM
WRXtuners Member
 
jwtarbaj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,344
Images: 11
jwtarbaj is more helpful than not
Send a message via AIM to jwtarbaj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nose Nuggets
So what? Its more likely StopTech and me and my pro buddies are wrong? As apposed to a a group of WRX owners and some magazine writers?

Sure.

Exactly my point. There are test numbers that prove it to be that they ARE wrong and you just can't seem to accept it.

You asked for 20 stops and I showed you that the numbers were averages of 25 vs the stock rotors 4 stop average yet still it just can't be that you are incorrect.

I don't think GPS lies but hey what do all those NASA type scientists know. Almost every Car & Driver writer is a former engineer in the automotive field. They are not just some retards who write about cars.
jwtarbaj is offline  
post #35 of 242 Old 04-09-2006, 06:44 PM
WRXtuners Member
 
9d2TSi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,171
Images: 5
9d2TSi is more helpful than not
Send a message via AIM to 9d2TSi Send a message via MSN to 9d2TSi
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwtarbaj
They are not just some retards who write about cars.
Hahaha, sometimes you'd wonder though. !Laugh!

My car is well, it's like 10 lbs of shit in a 5 lb bag...

<------ Click to see what I'm workin' with. ;)
9d2TSi is offline  
post #36 of 242 Old 04-10-2006, 12:38 PM
WRXtuners Member
 
Nose Nuggets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: California
Posts: 2,157
Nose Nuggets is known to be trustworthy and helpful Nose Nuggets is known to be trustworthy and helpful
there was a diference of 11 feet between the diferent runs on a single car. and an overall diference of 20 feet between the best aftermarket and the stock setup.

no scientist would accept those as results that prooved a damn thing.
Nose Nuggets is offline  
post #37 of 242 Old 04-10-2006, 02:09 PM
WRXtuners Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: California
Posts: 96
jlagace is an unknown
i'm going to hafta agree w/ Nose Nuggets and some common sense here.

think about it, the tires are the only thing connecting the car to the road.
what are upgraded brakes going to do for you in terms of stopping power?
are they going to make the rotor stop faster? stock brakes can already do that, that's called when your brakes lock up. you guys aren't giving enough credit to the stock brakes, THEY AREN'T THE WEAK LINK when it comes to stopping distance. and to those who say their brakes have never been "forceful" enough to lock up their brakes, well that's the beauty of ABS..

so how do you reduce stopping distance? your goal is to increase friction between the tires and the road, not the friction between the pads and the rotors (which is already strong enough to lock up your brakes). how do you increase friction between rubber and asphalt? simple answer: more rubber. wider tires. more surface area. wider contact patch. and no, there are no tires sticky or wide enough that will create enough friction to stop a 3000lb mass moving at 60mph very quickly at all. but a 165 vs 285 width tire will make a big difference, a way bigger difference in stopping distance then going from stock brakes to upgraded pads and rotors.


one should never rely on information from magazines or companies or anyone like that: they're all bias'ed and just want to sell you their product. above all else, trust your own common sense

02 WRX Sedan
World Rally Blue
jlagace is offline  
post #38 of 242 Old 04-10-2006, 03:25 PM
WRXtuners Member
 
Nose Nuggets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: California
Posts: 2,157
Nose Nuggets is known to be trustworthy and helpful Nose Nuggets is known to be trustworthy and helpful
yeah, stock brakes are easily capable of locking up your tires instantly with no abs.
Nose Nuggets is offline  
post #39 of 242 Old 04-11-2006, 03:26 PM Thread Starter
WRXtuners Member
 
eighth08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: California
Posts: 2,457
Images: 7
eighth08 is more helpful than not
Send a message via AIM to eighth08
my standing is that fluid, pads, and lines will all help braking distance.

lines help with the response of the system from the time you brake to the time it actually causes braking to happen at the rotor.

rotors being the least affect part of the brake system.

and whether it be 1 foot. or 100 feet shorter. that is eitherway QUICKER braking.

better lines especially means less flex in the line, meaning its like having a direct shot to the brakes and not putting the "force" into tightening up the line before it actually tells the brake to do its thing.

steel does not expand. the stock brake lines do.

and better pads reduce brake fade. which may not right away have an affect on stopping distance but eventually will be a huge factor in stopping distance through-out a race as the brakes are constantly applied and heat up beyond what they can handle.

Racers upgrade because stock brakes were designed for a single stop from high speed, not repeated slow-downs with little time in between to cool off. For fade resistance, size really does matter. On the street, fixed-mount, multi-piston calipers give a firmer pedal and quicker reaction time in panic stops. As little as 0.2 second reduction in reaction time can translate into 21 feet of stopping distance at 70 mph.

Gregory-
keep it in the dirt.
eighth08 is offline  
post #40 of 242 Old 04-12-2006, 12:42 PM
WRXtuners Member
 
Nose Nuggets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: California
Posts: 2,157
Nose Nuggets is known to be trustworthy and helpful Nose Nuggets is known to be trustworthy and helpful
Quote:
Originally Posted by eighth08
my standing is that fluid, pads, and lines will all help braking distance.
you can stand where ever you like. it dosent make it right.

Quote:
lines help with the response of the system from the time you brake to the time it actually causes braking to happen at the rotor.
no, a hydrolic system is allways instant. as long as there is flued the entire length of the line. having nicer, stiffer (steel braided) lines only effects how the peddle feels, and they will last longer.


Quote:
and whether it be 1 foot. or 100 feet shorter. that is eitherway QUICKER braking.
its not even 1 foot, but if you can justify spending 2K for 1 foot in braking, you go right ahead.

Quote:
better lines especially means less flex in the line, meaning its like having a direct shot to the brakes and not putting the "force" into tightening up the line before it actually tells the brake to do its thing.
the lines dont tighten. they are already filled with fluid, pressing the peddle only moves that fluid, and its not even very much.

Quote:
steel does not expand. the stock brake lines do.
plastic stretches a tad yeah, but we are talking very small amounts of pressure.

Quote:
and better pads reduce brake fade. which may not right away have an affect on stopping distance but eventually will be a huge factor in stopping distance through-out a race as the brakes are constantly applied and heat up beyond what they can handle.
yes! exactly! brake upgrades make an EPIC diference on a car that is tracked. drivign a stock WRX at 8/10ths will last maybe a lap and a half around Laguna Seca.


Quote:
Racers upgrade because stock brakes were designed for a single stop from high speed, not repeated slow-downs with little time in between to cool off. For fade resistance, size really does matter. On the street, fixed-mount, multi-piston calipers give a firmer pedal and quicker reaction time in panic stops. As little as 0.2 second reduction in reaction time can translate into 21 feet of stopping distance at 70 mph.
well, stock brakes are designed for daily driving and one or two threshold brakes from 100mph+. this whole quicker reaction time noncence is insanity. a hydrolic system i build in my gerage is just as instant as a F1 braking system, thats sorta the point of a hydrolic system.
Nose Nuggets is offline  
post #41 of 242 Old 04-14-2006, 10:06 AM
WRXpert
 
LiL Shoaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,810
Images: 2
LiL Shoaf is more helpful than not
Send a message via AIM to LiL Shoaf Send a message via Yahoo to LiL Shoaf
This is ridiculous.. It's not (1) part of a system that does the work, it's all the parts in connection.. The lines, Pads, Rotors, Rubber.. Even the inertia difference of a light weight flywheel will change a vehicles breaking dynamics.. Anyone that states that only one aspect of a system is important and not the others it flat out wrong.. You want a breaking machine then upgrade the SYSTEM.. Not a single component.. Granted upgrading your rubber will make a Hugh difference, but add to that a big break kit, hard lines, and rubber and you will have an even better system... It's Logic and common sense that if you upgrade an entire system it's better then upgrading a single component..

By the way, I was in (3) shops this weekend that specialize in "Track" cars and when I asked each shop about big breaks they all looked at me like I was an idiot when I said that some one on my forum was quoted saying that they don't stop a car any faster.. As a matter of fact, Phil from element tuning told me that they are a must for my car after my stock breaks failed to stop my car in time for a stop sign on our road tuning adventure.. And NO there was NO ABS activation and NO lockup... My upgraded rubber and momentum outperformed my stock break setup... Ohh, and for the credibility of Phil, he placed (2nd) in Time Attacks with his WRX.. So there is race experience there as well.. Considering that every magazine, every shop that I have EVER talked to, and pretty much every one that I have ever talked to, and my personal "seat time" sway me to the fact that big breaks WILL EFFECT BREAKING DISTANCE....

Just for clarification, braided lines are installed to prevent the lines from heating up and expanding under sever track conditions... When the stock lines heat up they DO swell when the peddle is applied and extra pressure is applied to the I.D. of the line..

02 WRX.. "It's fun when it runs.. Problem is that it hardly ever does..."
LiL Shoaf is offline  
post #42 of 242 Old 04-14-2006, 01:06 PM
WRXtuners Member
 
Nose Nuggets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: California
Posts: 2,157
Nose Nuggets is known to be trustworthy and helpful Nose Nuggets is known to be trustworthy and helpful
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiL Shoaf
This is ridiculous.. It's not (1) part of a system that does the work, it's all the parts in connection.. The lines, Pads, Rotors, Rubber.. Even the inertia difference of a light weight flywheel will change a vehicles breaking dynamics.. Anyone that states that only one aspect of a system is important and not the others it flat out wrong.. You want a breaking machine then upgrade the SYSTEM.. Not a single component.. Granted upgrading your rubber will make a Hugh difference, but add to that a big break kit, hard lines, and rubber and you will have an even better system... It's Logic and common sense that if you upgrade an entire system it's better then upgrading a single component..

By the way, I was in (3) shops this weekend that specialize in "Track" cars and when I asked each shop about big breaks they all looked at me like I was an idiot when I said that some one on my forum was quoted saying that they don't stop a car any faster.. As a matter of fact, Phil from element tuning told me that they are a must for my car after my stock breaks failed to stop my car in time for a stop sign on our road tuning adventure.. And NO there was NO ABS activation and NO lockup... My upgraded rubber and momentum outperformed my stock break setup... Ohh, and for the credibility of Phil, he placed (2nd) in Time Attacks with his WRX.. So there is race experience there as well.. Considering that every magazine, every shop that I have EVER talked to, and pretty much every one that I have ever talked to, and my personal "seat time" sway me to the fact that big breaks WILL EFFECT BREAKING DISTANCE....
If my stock brakes can instantly lock up my tires. How do larger components help slow the car down?

That is the objective of brakes correct? To slow the tires down? And as i recall, instant is about as quick as things get. So if you can answer that question, maybe we have something to go on. I understand your thinking, believe me, before i started working for skip i was 100% in your frame of mind. It totally sounds logical that larger components = larger surface area, which would subsequently make the car slow down faster.


Quote:
Just for clarification, braided lines are installed to prevent the lines from heating up and expanding under sever track conditions... When the stock lines heat up they DO swell when the peddle is applied and extra pressure is applied to the I.D. of the line..
yeah, under race conditions.
Nose Nuggets is offline  
post #43 of 242 Old 04-15-2006, 09:41 AM
WRXpert
 
bigbadbuddha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,747
Images: 15
bigbadbuddha is more helpful than not
Send a message via AIM to bigbadbuddha Send a message via MSN to bigbadbuddha
I have been following this thread for a bit now and up until now have just sat by the sidelines reading intently.....
No Offense Nose Nuggets but you need to be a little less narrow minded.
Shoaf is completely correct in saying its an entire system.
How do I know? Well my accord( one heavy sucka runs 13.5" rotors and a 4 piston set up. When I ran this thing on the track with the stock motor and stock brakes i was slow. When I went with the complete brake upgrade, i was turning faster times than a Integra type-r.
Why? I was able to brake much deeper in the corner than them, thus increasing the distance I was at top speed. So I decreased my braking distance considerably. I was actually 2.34 sec faster than the Type R....
We all agree that tires have an effect on the braking, but it is not just about the tires alone.... braking SYSTEM, as Shoaf said they all work in unison. Remove one part ad it weakens the entire system.

Big Jae -
JDM version 7 bugeye
bigbadbuddha is offline  
post #44 of 242 Old 04-15-2006, 12:41 PM
WRXtuners Member
 
Nose Nuggets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: California
Posts: 2,157
Nose Nuggets is known to be trustworthy and helpful Nose Nuggets is known to be trustworthy and helpful
can you explain why they do? its all good and well that you think they do. but can you explain why? ill ask the same question again,

If my stock brakes can instantly lock up my tires. How do larger components help slow the car down?
Nose Nuggets is offline  
post #45 of 242 Old 04-15-2006, 07:50 PM
WRXtuners Member
 
jwtarbaj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,344
Images: 11
jwtarbaj is more helpful than not
Send a message via AIM to jwtarbaj
We continue to miss the point that the wheels/tires cannot be locked up because of ABS. If your car is magically locking up then you should have your ABS checked because it's not working right. Don't continue to ask for proof when you provide none yourself. We can keep going back & forth saying my people say this but other people say that.

Last edited by jwtarbaj; 04-16-2006 at 10:32 PM.
jwtarbaj is offline  
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On