Why upgrade your brakes? - Page 2 - Subaru WRX Forum
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post #16 of 242 Old 04-06-2006, 06:28 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiL Shoaf
- Multiple Pistons will stop a car faster then a single piston design - Multiple pistons apply the pressure more evenly across the pad "theoretically" providing a greater contact area because the force load is distributed.. Same theory as wider tires..

that is what my last 3 posts have been trying to say. you said it very well.

a more evenly distributed friction on the rotor.

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post #17 of 242 Old 04-06-2006, 06:42 PM
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Hay LiL Shoaf, did you read the StopTech article?

Having larger caliper means faster brake cool down, if you have a larger caliper you need more pistons to push the pad evenly, IT DOES NOT INCREASE THE RATE OF DECELERATION!

The STI Brakes are bigger because the STI is designed to be a starter track car.

Sanding steel has nothing to do with how brakes work.

I get my information from professional race car drivers, and working at a racing school (http://www.skipbarber.com). Teaching people how to drive race cars around a race track, and working on formula dodge cars.

I don't understand how

Quote:
“You can take this one to the bank. Regardless of your huge rotor diameter, brake pedal ratio, magic brake pad material, or number of pistons in your calipers, your maximum deceleration is limited every time by the tire to road interface. That is the point of this whole article. Your brakes do not stop your car. Your tires do stop the car. So while changes to different parts of the brake system may affect certain characteristics or traits of the system behavior, using stickier tires is ultimately the only sure-fire method of decreasing stopping distances.”
could be any clearer. Thats from the mouth of Tom McCready and James Walker, Jr. of scR motorsports. This article is posted on StopTech's web site. Who would be a better resource then the guys who MAKE the brakes?

I post the same information every time someone posts a brake thread.
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post #18 of 242 Old 04-06-2006, 08:36 PM Thread Starter
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i understand that quote from the article but, the best stopping happens just before the tires start to skid. so in a sense how could sticky tires be the backbone behind stopping. sure super sticky tires are great when skidding. but if your car is not skidding, what is the next weakest link stopping you from a quick stop?

you certainly do not want to break traction between your tire and the ground so sticky tires are a huge plus. and the single most important aspect of any car yes. but when you are at a high speed are you gonna say nice pads, with big rotors to be pressed against with 6 pistons evenly applying this friction is not gonna help with approaching 0mph quicker?

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post #19 of 242 Old 04-06-2006, 09:51 PM
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Sorry I have to refer to my post from the past again

Willwood brakes

In my post the link to Car & Driver test of several BBKs on a WRX. The BBKs all stopped shorter thus showing your StopTech tire limitation idea is not 100% true.
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post #20 of 242 Old 04-06-2006, 11:31 PM
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Okay what LilShoaf said was that bigger brakes will not stop a car faster if the car has crappy tires.
For example, you have 2 comparable WRX's on the track, same driver for both. Both have the same good track tires, nice and sticky. WRX #1 has stock Subaru brakes while WRX#2 has upgraded quality/size brakes. Which do you beleive will stop first if in the same situation with the same reaction time and speed on the same section of track?

I rest my case. You can continue to say OH IT'S ALL IN THE TIRES. Yes, but once the tires are good, the brakes will help! And with bigger brakes you do have better cooling, thus less warped rotors and brake damage.

Brent
2007 Satin White STi, 1989 Nissan Sil-Coupe, 1998 Toyota 4runner (to be built..)...
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post #21 of 242 Old 04-07-2006, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awd>fwd
Okay what LilShoaf said was that bigger brakes will not stop a car faster if the car has crappy tires.
For example, you have 2 comparable WRX's on the track, same driver for both. Both have the same good track tires, nice and sticky. WRX #1 has stock Subaru brakes while WRX#2 has upgraded quality/size brakes. Which do you beleive will stop first if in the same situation with the same reaction time and speed on the same section of track?

I rest my case. You can continue to say OH IT'S ALL IN THE TIRES. Yes, but once the tires are good, the brakes will help! And with bigger brakes you do have better cooling, thus less warped rotors and brake damage.
AWD>FWD got what I was saying to the Tee.. IF you have comparable cars/driver/rubber which is stopping sooner?? My stock setup or an STI setup on my WRX for example.... One can focus on a single point like the "Tires" (which is a HUGH factor in stopping power I admit) but with that one variable aside all the others come into play... I get what you are saying and we all agree that rubber is Hugh but so is size..

As for the comment about sandpaper and steel don't be so defensive please, it was an analogy.. Sand paper is a textured compound as are your break pads.. Steel is steel, rotors or a Die (what I make).. Thus applying a textured compound to a Die or a rotor will be similar enough to back up my analogy.. Both situations create Heat and friction.. Don't limit yourself to thinking and looking only inside the box.. And don't take offense my comments as they are not "attacking" towards you, my opinions and beliefs are just different then yours...

02 WRX.. "It's fun when it runs.. Problem is that it hardly ever does..."
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post #22 of 242 Old 04-07-2006, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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i got it shoaf. your brake pads are like lower grit sand paper. and the die are like the rotors. when applied with pressure against each other, it creates friction and heat. makes perfect sense to me.

good analogy.

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post #23 of 242 Old 04-07-2006, 12:45 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awd>fwd
Okay what LilShoaf said was that bigger brakes will not stop a car faster if the car has crappy tires.
For example, you have 2 comparable WRX's on the track, same driver for both. Both have the same good track tires, nice and sticky. WRX #1 has stock Subaru brakes while WRX#2 has upgraded quality/size brakes. Which do you beleive will stop first if in the same situation with the same reaction time and speed on the same section of track?

I rest my case. You can continue to say OH IT'S ALL IN THE TIRES. Yes, but once the tires are good, the brakes will help! And with bigger brakes you do have better cooling, thus less warped rotors and brake damage.

a lot is in the tires. a whole lot. but if you really think about it. when you brake. the most noticable slow down is when you car is coming to a stop, and the friction on the rotor is just short of causing the tire to stop spinning completely. thats when the brakes have caused the tires to spin very little. and it is just before the car skids.

now before the car starts skidding, how do tires affect braking that dramatically. i can see the tires having some affect, but how is it that dramatic?

i may have just answered my own question. maybe it is when the tires are nice and sticky, they are less likely to skid sooner because they are gripping so hard? i am not 100% on that.

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post #24 of 242 Old 04-07-2006, 01:02 PM
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Eighth08:
the best possible braking is called threshold braking. Its the point where the tires are rotating slower then the car is moving, that is the absolute, undisputed best braking scenario.

When you are skidding, your not slowing the car down very quickly at all.

Jwtarbaj :
yeah, a lot of the same info i posted in this thread as well. There are also a couple good threads about how lame an inaccurate car and driver can be. Not to mention that the biggest different in stooping distance at 90mph was like 20 feet. Between the stop techs and the stock brakes. Well 20 feet at 90mph is easily made up by a .2 second difference in reaction time.

awd>fwd:
In your scenario both cars would stop in the same amount of time.

LiL Shoaf :
i still disagree. The size of your rotors or pads or calipers do not effect braking distance. Its just not the case. I apologize for jumping on your sand paper thing. Your right, sand paper and steel do make friction and heat the same way brakes do.
Outside the box? Come on man. If anyone is not thinking outside the box its you guys. You are the ones that are stuck on the brakes. Im the one outside the box trying to convince you of something you feel is irrational.

This is what happened in the other thread. Eventually i just give up. All i can do is repeat myself again and again. If i had a professional driver make an account and post would that make a difference? Have you guys heard of Conrad Grunewald? He drifts for Formula D and D1? Or how about Kelly Collins? The ALMS Corvette driver? Or even Spencer Pumpelly? ALMS Porsche 911 GT3 RSR driver. All guys i have worked with and know. All guys i have talked extensively with about race theory, vehicle dynamics, and chassis physics. All guys who would agree with me like there wasent any other plausible answer. Come out to Cali, we can go to Seca and you can talk to some of these guys yourself. What else can i do to convince you? Or have you already made up your mind?
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post #25 of 242 Old 04-07-2006, 01:36 PM
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This is what my mind is made up on.. Tires are not the "ONLY" influence on braking as you keep repeating.. No matter who tells me this It's simply NOT true.. As with ANYTHING there are multiple factors that play a large roll.. Car and Drive are not the only company that has done break comparisons.. If what you are saying to accurate all of those test would have ended in the same conclusion (Equal stopping distance), however NONE of them have.. NOT a single one.. I agree with you that Rubber is a Hugh influence as will ANY enthusiast, however so is caliper size, piston number, rotor diameter, and so on.. The physics and dynamic difference created by the increase in diameter of the rotor, the aggressiveness of the pad compound, Seriously.. Trying to say that Tires are the only influence in stopping distance is simply "In the box"... This I say not to attack, but rather illustrated that your focusing on one factor when there are several others that play an equal roll..


If tires are the only factor then put a 6" rotor on your car with a single piston caliper on all 4 tires and we will "test" your stopping distance compared to even stock breaks.. I will even machine the "custom rotors" and buy the calipers...

As for 20 feet that could mean a new bumper or even a life.. One doesn't always have that extra .2 second that it "Could" relate to.. I apologize, I didn't calculate the math because there are too many variables like weight of vehicle, tire compound, rim weight, break setup, and yes even flywheel weight that influence the figures...

As an after though I say this:

With the exception to Nose Nuggest and a few other I "assume" most will say that Breaks up grades are a valid purchase.. I say this to this topic as will all others.. Everyone should do their own research before making any decisions.. By this I don't mean ask other people.. Look for facts and figures!! People have opinions.. That's all I have to say on this topic anymore, it's clear that no matter what is brought up no opinions will change... Nuf said??

02 WRX.. "It's fun when it runs.. Problem is that it hardly ever does..."
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post #26 of 242 Old 04-07-2006, 01:57 PM
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The brake components have a HUGE influence on aspects of braking. Just not the rate of slowdown. They effect brake bias and things like that.

If you wana buy me a brake kit and come out here and do some tests, im down. Ill do brake test until im blue in the face.

On the 20 foot thing, the .2 second difference is IMPOSIBLE to remove with a human driver in the seat. What im saying is there test is not accurate enough. If you ran every brake set they tested 20 times each, there would be no difference in distance. They would all have overlapping stopping distances.

Food for thought: the Dodge Viper RT/10 has the shortest stopping distance of the i think 20 cars tested in one issue of car&driver/road&track. They put it up against a Porsche with the crazy half rotor calipers. And the rt/10 out broke it. How? You ask, could a car weighing at least 800 pounds more with smaller brake components slow down in less distance? because the rear tires are absolute enormous.
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post #27 of 242 Old 04-07-2006, 02:15 PM Thread Starter
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I agree. you have to research it your self. the best ive seen an opinion do is help with what brand is best. and which brand to stay away from.

everyone has an opinion. i have some from experience with brakes. like me and my buddy both have toyo proxes 4 tires (i can take pics to prove it.) and driving his car... stopping feels so much quicker and responsive. i believe it is the brembo brakes in that scenario personally.

and nosenuggets, i am down to goto seca anytime. its only a few hours from me. i live just north of san francisco. let me know.


and i know skidding isnt slowing down the car any faster that was apart of my point.

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post #28 of 242 Old 04-07-2006, 02:28 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nose Nuggets
Food for thought: the Dodge Viper RT/10 has the shortest stopping distance of the i think 20 cars tested in one issue of car&driver/road&track. They put it up against a Porsche with the crazy half rotor calipers. And the rt/10 out broke it. How? You ask, could a car weighing at least 800 pounds more with smaller brake components slow down in less distance? because the rear tires are absolute enormous.

well no one said that HUGE tires would not have an affect. or tires at all. we all agreed that tires play a big role.. (get it? role... like roll....HAHA.)

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post #29 of 242 Old 04-07-2006, 02:47 PM
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This is the way it is. You can either accept the fact that i know this is true from experience, or you cant. Either way it makes no never mind to me. After all, im not the one buying the kits. Eigth08, you are more then welcome to come down any time you like and check out seca, its open to the public. My days off are Tuesday and Sunday, and i would be more then happy to go out there with you and introduce you to some instructors, hell Spencer or Kelly might be there. Conrad is a full time instructor, (and my cousin) so getting you in a car with him wouldn't be difficult. If there is a skippy event going on and my cousin is working it, ill get you neon-a-round, or on the skid-pad or auto cross in a viper, just depends on what event is going on that day.

Im done debating this topic. If you have any more specific questions or scenarios you would like my input on, i would be more then happy to give feedback. On the specific subject of brake component size and how they effect braking distance, im done. I have presented you with my views, facts, referenced my sources and even quoted articles from a company that designs and sells brakes. Thats all i can do.
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post #30 of 242 Old 04-07-2006, 02:56 PM Thread Starter
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i will PM you sometime about it.

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