Big Sky there are two ways to look at this.... look at it this way there's the engenairs way to look at and there's a mechnics way too look at it.... in big race opps the engenairs give there data to the michincs they look it over try some things then based on how the DRIVER feels in the car they make adjustments.... you lean way too much on what engenairs say and too little on what you feel in the car....
lowering springs certainly aren't tnherently "bad", to the contrary- they lower the cog which is "good" - if the spring is "good" it will also increase the spring rates appropriately and not overly lower the car
+1 to that...it seems we are saying the same thing in different languages. Either way, i totally agree with that statement.
Don't get me wrong. It's a cheap way to get rid of the wheel gap. In fact, I'll be getting lowering springs over the summer. Just as long as you realize it will worsen your handling, and put more stress on your stock shocks. As of now, the gains for me are better than what I lose since most of my cash already went into handling, and right now, I'm concentrating on visuals.
You started all this crap, and then you tell us that you're going to put a set on your car !
BLASPHEMY !
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Okey's Black Mamba-06 STi-OBP- Cobb stage 2
I have prodrive lowering springs on KYB GR2 struts, and I love them, they have noticeably improved my handling over stock springs and OEM struts. But, I followed the golden rule of lowering springs.. As whitelines own sites says, and I quote..
"Our springs WILL make your car handle better if matched with appropriate shocks"
This is the only thing one need consider when looking at springs IMHO... the rest just reads like a commercial for coilovers and whitelines 'other' suspension parts for which they are more well known and established. Especially sway bars.. and imagine that, better time with just their ALK, and that nice little blurb about a second gain from JUST a sway bar. $$$$ Cha-Ching!
Everyone is selling something, and I rarely trust 'studies' conducted by manufacturers that then suggest their 'other' solutions as 'better' alternatives.
Just my 2 cents.. match your springs with your struts, and you'll be fine.
indeed one has to match the springs w/ dampers, but the lowering spring still changes the geometry (lowering the cg AND the rc)- this is nothing the strut has any influence over (unless one fabs up different spring perches )
regardless of damper, the message remains w/ a Mac P setup you can go too low and hurt handling
Late to the party here. I am updating the NASIOC Lowering Spring FAQ and was looking at some of the great writeups here. Who knew?
Quote:
Originally Posted by squidz
Sorry, i guess i misunderstood. I thought the point was to tell people that lowering springs are bad and that if you use them (especially without aftermarket struts) it will make your car handle worse than stock. It really seems that way when you read the beginning of this thread. But like i said, i may have misunderstood what was being said.
I read the first post exactly the same way. It's hard not to. Here are the direct quotes that stand out:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vew
I believe it's time to just flat out explain why lowering springs do not improve your handling. It infact should worsen it.
...
To lower a car properly, you need to either match up the spring with a set of shocks, or do a full blown set of coilovers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vew
You may feel that your handling has improved, but I assure you it hasn't. That was the point of the whole thread and the debate.
It's mostly based on one anecdotal example from Whiteline. It basically assumes that it's impossible to design a lowering spring for a stock car. There is a lot of crap out there, but there's a lot of good examples as well. JDM pinks, the Prodrives for the WRX, the Espilirs for the Evo, etc etc. Unfortunately they are not as popular because many more people are concerned with "the look".
I think BigSky's posts are dead on, but some of the language in the first post could be made more clear.
Yes... I see what you mean. This topic has outgrown itself I must say. Basically, the reason I started this thread because there was a big flood of posts concerning lowering springs and the assumption regardless, handling would be improved.
The change in geometery was my biggest concern when I first got into it. My co-worker and I had a big discussion and the solutions were not pretty. A little more involved than most would be willing to go. Mainly why I didn't mention it.
But he is right, there is MUCH to be considered, and much I don't understand myself. If BigSky is willing to work with me, I'd be more than happy to update this thread.
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Jon
"We live for a good time, not a long time."
RIP Colin McRae
I like where you are going with this Vew. Im trying to learn and understand suspension a little better myself. Like the best ways to do it, best combinations, and what affects what. I second Vews motion, lol.
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Joshua
"They lied, not coming home till August 18th, Im rejoining civilization. Screw this sandbox"
Lowering springs aren't "bad" per se, in fact they can improve performance (significantly in some cases), it is important to realize (particularly w/ a MacP setup) that lowering springs can also decrease performance in some cases.
Lowering is "good" because it lowers the center of gravity (cog), where things go haywire is w/ a Mac P strut as you lower you lower the roll center (rc) too- this don't lower proportionally, the more you lower the further the cog distances itself form the rc. The distance between the cog and rc is refered to as the roll couple- think of it as a lever- the shorter the lever the more the car will resist roll, the longer the opposite (refer to the diagram I linked earlier). Ideally you want to keep the lever short as possible, thus the caution of over lowering and the potential for decrease in performance. Obviously spring rates play a role as well, the stiffer the more resitant to roll- so as you lower you want to insure that spring rates go up.
I could go on, but basically if you keep the lowering moderate, increasing the spring rates as well- you will see an increase in performance. Don't keep the lowering moderate and/or increase the spring rates you could very well see a decrease in performance.
I could go on, but basically if you keep the lowering moderate, increasing the spring rates as well- you will see an increase in performance. Don't keep the lowering moderate and/or increase the spring rates you could very well see a decrease in performance.
And the "I assure you it has not" post was in regards to a set of SPT Pinks - which lower very mildly and increase the rates noticeably (since they are practically the same as the USDM STi springs) - I thought that was odd
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