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Vf22 ???

8K views 55 replies 12 participants last post by  REXronald 
#1 ·
well, pulled my intake manifold and tumble valve housing this weekend, the one tumble valve has been broken for some time now and i discovered it was near 90% closed all this time.... (that's some serious airflow restriction in 2 out of 4 of the intake pathways...one TGV motor drives two butterfly valves... and the car still seemed fast all this time)... anyways... i pulled the butterfly flaps and they are happily gone forever now.......

also... buttloads of electrical connectors and hoses to be pulled, what a PIA it was.... (and i haven't put it all back together yet, uhoh... waiting for gaskets and PERRIN silicone intake pipe)

to get to the VF22 point... i checked my VF30 and it has enough shaft play to allow the blade to just slightly catch the housing as I spin it with my bare hand....... in other words... its seen better days, and the worst part is, it's only got about 5k miles on it... that sucks....

but i'm going to upgrade the turbo soon, not sure what to get, figuring i'll get the VF22... what kind of WHP can i expect from it with a good tune... (stage 4 car with GTspec headers, no CATS, front mount PERRIN, UTEC used for engine mngmt) and what 1/4 time can be run with this turbo, assuming the drivetrain and clutch held up and a good driver was at the wheel... :rolleyes: ?

Can a PE1818 or an SR30, maybe SR40 make more HP than the VF22 or be better turbo to get... I don't get it... the PE's are real expensive, the SR's are rich-person expensive, and the VF22 is $600 shipped from Gruppe-S.... i don't see the point in getting those more expensive turbos when a VF22 can make the same or more powre.... anyone care to fill me in???

thanks.
 
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#2 ·
Out of all those turbos the VF22 is the smallest. The PE1818 and SR30/40 won't build boost until later but they will hit really hard. The stock tranny proably won't be able to hold the punch of the PE1818 or SR40. You don't race your car either so a VF22 would probably your best choice if you want streetability with your car. Just my .02
 
#3 ·
you're saying...

the vf22 is smallest of the sr30, 40 and PE1818??? Are you certain that is right? The PE1818 is just a VF34 with some modifications made to it... porting or something i think... or are they changing the compressor housing altogether on that??? i don't really know...

anyways.. yeah... Even the VF34 will destroy my clutch and tranny if a regularly went to the track and ran solid 1/4 mile launches.... so i'm not concerned with the tranny, i'm not dumb and i know where to put the power down to avoid tearing through tranny gears on a daily driving basis.... But since the 22 is the least expensive of them all, i will probably go with that, and besides, i don't want to fall asleep in the car waiting for the turbo to spool... But i do want a bit more top end highway power than what the VF30/34 produce, so i assume the 22 should do the trick.... (and having fixed those darn tumble valves)... figure on the highway with those darn things closed is where the car has been suffering the most, when it needed the most air flow...

funny thing is this.. i pulled my spark plugs when i did all of this on saturday, the two that where being starved of air from the valves being closed where rich as heck... black on the tips, the other two looked much leaner and had a bit more of a white/grey tip to them.... i am certain those 2 cylinders were getting improper air flow at high throttle points.... my 02....
 
#4 ·
the white/grey on the plugs is det most of the time.look really close at the tip of the plug you can sometimes tell by that also.. also the vf22 is better then a vf34 but to be honest if you want a big difference, go with pe1820.. you ever look into fp18g thats what i think iam going to end up going with.. spools faster then a vf22 and makes quite a bit more hp to.. befor putting on a new turbo after your vf34 i would do a compression check..but to be honest if you go bigger then a vf22 your tranny will break.. i have been in a car that had a pe1820 and it hits very hard.. fp18g hits even harder then that.. i would start saveing for a new set of gears or sti tranny..also for your question about how much whp you can make on a vf22.. i would say 300whp give or take on a mustang dyno on 93 pump.. pe1820 probly get you 315whp maby a little more.. about the 315-320whp for the fp18g.. the kind of hp you get will really depend on how good of a tune you get.. but i think the vf22 would probly be the best for you but i think it will end up breaking your tranny.. it hits a decent amount harder the vf34 soo if you hear something rattleing around in your trans dont be shocked..well hope i helped a little..
 
#7 ·
the tool you need is a compression gauge, measures the static compression of the motor, I would also suggest using a cylinder leak-down tester, its two gauges with a regulator, it gives you a percentage of blow-by the cylinder has(how much compression is getting past the rings and/or the valves. hope this helps you out!
 
#10 ·
the rubber hose should work as long as you can get your mits in there to thread it into the hole. the specs should be in the PDF files available in another thread. I will look for them after work, also have to change the plugs in the scoob-mobile so I will also do a compression check and a leakdown as well. I will let everyone know what (if any) pitfalls I run into.
also, is there any problems to pulling the butterflys off the tumblers? drivability issues? CELs? I might do it just to be rid of them. then its figuring the valve shim deal. getting a ticking from the pass. side after a 7k shift.
 
#11 ·
...

purchased the compression tester... leakdown on backorder... how do i use the leakdown tester... through the sparkplug housings also? or is it more involved than the compression tester... what compression? i used to know it, but forget it now.... 50psi or something??? or is that way off the mark??? anyways... The tumbles are out of my car now... had to drill the shafts to get the butterflys off.... (the phillips screws were so tight that stripped very easily).... getting intake manifold off and back on was the most paid of the job..... and havn't finished yet (waiting for gaskets/perrin silicon intake tube, and new turbo) before i do finish.... but you'll defineately get at least 4 CEL's from it... TGV stuck, TGV low ouput, left and right sides, (mines been stuck about 80% closed for a long time and had no issues with how the car was running, other than 2 of my 4 cylinders weren't breathing correctly, car still seemed fast and powerfull to me)... on of my outer plug/connection points was craked and broken, that is why it wasn't working... i did not discover the damage (and therefore cause of the TGV CELs) until i starting pulled the manifold to get rid of the darn things... IF your TGV's work now, leave them alone, (unless you are willing to get your TGV housings ported, or purchase the new TGV delete housings for the car)... because they open when the car needs to (high throttle situations) and flow just fine.... but just pulling the buttreflys out won't do anything for flow at high throttle as it will be no different than when they were working and opening at high throttle).... my .02

Should have my compression tester tomorrow... will let all know what i come out with... hope its ok, because i am about to get ported 18G turbo for big power...
 
#14 ·
the leakdown test is simple, need to put the cyl in question to top dead center (compression stroke, piston at top of travel) and run compressed air into the tester, you determine the amount of leakdown as a percentage as read on the gauges. put 50 psi into the cyl, and have 4 psi leakage, you have 8 percent leakdown. hard to add oil to the cyl to isolate head or ring problems due to the boxer setup.
 
#16 · (Edited)
To test compression:

1. Warm up the engine.
2. Make sure battery is fully charged.
3. Release fuel pressure (Check TurboXS Stage IV instructions. There is a green connector in the passenger foot well that will kill the fuel pressure).
4. Remove all spark plugs.
5. Fully open the throttle valve.
6. Check the starter motor for satifactory performance and operation.
7. Hold the compression gague tight against the spark plug hole.

Caution: When using a screw-in type compression gauge, the screw (Put into cylinger head spark plug hole) should be less than 18 mm long).

8. Crank the engine by means of the starter motor, and read the maximum value on the gauge when the pointer is steady.
9. Perform at least two measurements per cylinder, and make sure that the values are correct.

Compression (350 rpm and fully open throttle):
Standard; 138-166 psi
Limit; 121 psi
Difference between cylinders; 7 psi

(This is straight out of the Subaru Engine Service Manual)

Oh, and FYI, as you may notice.... it doesn't say anything about bringing the cylinder to the top of its stroke. Though, just because it's not in the Service manual doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. I have yet to do a compression check on my WRX, so I cannot comment any more on that subject.

Blue
 
#17 ·
correct on the compression check, however for a leakdown test, you need to put the piston all the way up, pull all the plugs as in the compression check, however there is no cranking needed. the purpose is to check for leakage past the rings or past valves or gaskets at the point of combustion... piston at the top of its travel(or furthest outwards from the crank in our case) the gauge set hooks up to an air source like a compressor, and pressurizes the cylinder. if the piston is not at the very top of the stroke the air pressure will push the piston back down to the bottom.I have a few wooden dowels about as thick as a pencil that I use for this. with the crank shaft pointing to the top dead center mark, number one should be at the top of travel, using the dowel(long enough to fit into the plug hole and stick out enough to see with the dowel hitting the top of the piston.) you can move the crank with a socket and ratchet enough to see the dowel move in and out(need to keep the dowel in contact with the piston), use this as a visual cue when the piston is all the way up. then do the leakdown test by pressurizing the cyl and looking at the gauges to see the level of leakdown(or blow-by) this will give you a good indication of the condition of the cyl. at the point in which it makes the power. its like a freeze frame of a compression test, the vitals of the motor if you will. to do the other cyls, move to the next one in the firing order and repeat.(will need to turn crank over 90 degrees to bring the next cyl. up to the top)
 
#19 ·
exactly! its a great diagnostic tool, I use mine almost every day as part of drivability diagnosis, can catch a lot of potential problems before they leave a customer stranded with a blown motor.
 
#20 ·
did the compression test cold...

HOw much can i rely on the these results???

I did the compression test today on the engine cold.... I am in thhe middle of a job removing the TGV valves from the housings and i am still waiting for the replcaement intake pipe before i put it all back together.. (upgrading the piece of intake that sits below the manifold).... I realize it should be down with the engine warmed up, but it was to tempting to at least try it out with all the stuff out of the engine bay (easy access to the sprak plug housings right now)

(the results are not promising)

by Cylinder:
Passenger rear: 145
Passenger front: 150
Driver rear: 120 (add oil thru exposed intake head, 155)
Driver front: 45 (add oil thru exposed intake head, 90)

The driver front did not sound good at all. The car seemed to be running with good power all this time, but of course that's with nothing to really compare it against.

Can a test of the system when cold give any results at all.... The passenger side seemed to be fine, its the driver side that appers to have some issues. I realize i need to run the test warm, and try a leak down test, but how bout the the numbers right now? HOw bad a sign is this?

The intake head with the lowest copmression looked very 'dry' inside, absent of much carbon buildup and of much oil residue, the others all looked very 'wet' with either carbon or oil or wahtever???????

I will likely put it all back together, drive the car till it shit's on me, and then buy a forged engine or get this one re-built with forged internals. At this point, what other choice do i have?

The only thing that i can see other than the test be running cold, is that the battery charge may have been an issue... My battery is pretty 'tired' after having been fully drained once or twice now, its almost 3 yrs in use, and i had to hook up to my wifes battery in her car with jumper cables after a few when i ran the test on the driver side cylinders.... I'm pretty sure there is no way it was cranking at 350 rpms..it just wasn't getting full juice....
 
#21 ·
well the only one that looks bad is the driver front.. i would do a leak down test for that cylinder.. see what you can find honestly you should of done the test on a warm motor.. but the other cylinders seem to be fine... with that low of a number 90 vs 150-145 seems like you blew a ring.. but it could be some other things to..
 
#22 ·
would seem like the engine has pooped the bed, however I would hook the battery up to a charger, and re-test the driver side cyls. cranking speed can have an effect on pressures. hopefully a leakdown will find a problem in the head, not the block, would rather rebuild a head than a whole shortblock any day.
 
#23 ·
weird part is....

car is still real quick, so i would say the car has certainly 'wet the bed'... but it hasn't shit yet.... So why not drive it until it does? Then rebuild the whole damn thing forged?

Or would it be cheaper to just by a Version 7 or 8 JDM STi forged 2.0? Does our ecu work with those engines? I found a brand new version 8 (i think) jdm sti 2.0 for $5000.... that's everything but the intercooler, turbo, wiring harness, and ecu... So i should certainly be able to find the block and heads for less than that... and just use the manifolds and turbo/intcooler/ecu/etc from my car.... ????? or is there more to that swap than that?? I'm pretty sure Bushcur can do the swap for me... they sell the jdm sti engines on their website i think.
 
#24 ·
:confused: Why go with a $5,000 JDM Semi-Closed Deck when you can get a 2.5 USDM Semi-Closed Deck, and swap out the pistons, use the WRX heads and have a monster of a car. Of if you want an even bigger monster, then go out and get better cams and better Heads. Either way, you're saving yourself a lot of money. It's what I'd do. Actually, what I'd do is find a used 2.2 Closed Deck Legacy Turbo Block, and then go to town with that. EVEN cheaper, and almost bulletproof

Blue
 
#25 ·
yeah, you may be right

what i think i may do is go with the Cobb tuner series 2.2L closed deck with all forged internals... will hold up to 25 psi, and since i only hope to run at 19-20 psi (safely) someday, that will be more than adequate for my needs, and it is stock fitment to the WRX heads... (of course i don't yet know if its my block or my heads that are causing the compression problem)... but nonetheless, the Cobb looks like a pretty good setup for the $$$.

what do you think? $3200 for the 2.2L, good up to 8000rpm.
 
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