Deadbolt Super 16G, FP/SBR Evo3 16G or EJ5-40T? - Subaru WRX Forum
 
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#1 Old 02-08-2006, 08:25 AM
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Deadbolt Super 16G, FP/SBR Evo3 16G or EJ5-40T?

Hi all!

First post here on WRX tuners and hope you could all give me some advice from experiences with turbo options.

As the title states, I'm trying to choose between: (lowest prices I've found)
Deadbolt Super 16G's - $1195 ea (includes Monster port, Black Xtreme turbine coating and Grey Ceramic comp coating)
Forced Performance WRX Evo3 16G's - $844 ea (+$95 porting)
SBR Evo3 16G's - $899 ea (+$60 turb outlet port, +$60 turb inlet port)
Momentum's EJ5-40T's - $759

Which of these would you recommend for a daily driver (set to 17psi - 22psi on 93 octane pump gas depending on knock from logs) that will also see some serious use on roadcourses and occasional dragstrip boosting to ~30psi? Any significant differences between them?

In addition, would/should I need to have them ported? What benefits have been seen here ported vs. unported?

It's also important to give you some info about my car. I have a '94 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 all-wheel drive, twin turbo (no unfortunately I don't have a Suby).

I'm actually looking at twin turbo upgrades for my VR-4. I have a set of custom headers made to bolt IHI/WRX VF-series bolt pattern turbos to my 6G72 engine. The engine has a fully built bottom end with forged Crower rods and a forged crank with forged Ross pistons. The block is slightly overbored to fit the Ross pistons and is now just about 3.1 liters (a hair under actually).

Currently, one of the hot setups for 3/S's (3/S = 3000GT/Stealth) is with twin MHI Evo3 16G's. Makes good power with decent spool. So far, they've already been proven to hold about 30+psi (at sea-level) to 7000-7500rpm, making about 640 - 670+ awhp on VP C16 race gas (on bone stock blocks, 3.0l, stock pistons, rods etc.) and 3/S's have hit 10's at 130-140mph 1/4's (no NOS). To bolt them on though, requires TD05 headers (and all the supporting mods of course), since the stock headers are TD04.

Well, I have the custom IHI headers and was hoping to bolt some turbos on that WOULDN'T necessitate spending another $1k-$2k for a new set of headers and realized that there are now Evo3 16G options that bolt on to WRX's and should fit my headers. The headers I have were originally meant to be used with VF22's and have also been paired with twin PE1820's. Decent trap speeds with the PE1820 (130's mph) but awful lag.

The car is being built/tuned for mostly hardcore roadcourse use though, with maybe a little dragstrip use so I'm hoping to minimize lag. Hoping to test it on Road America after tuning. Already have a tuned suspension and 355mm Stoptech brakes.

So with that said, I'd like to hear the opinions of everyone who has experience with these turbo options, recommendations and why.

Thanks in advance for any help and info.


Max
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#2 Old 02-08-2006, 04:10 PM
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BTW, I've tried searching about these turbos, but thus far have only come up with some comparisons to VF34's. Not much on the Deadbolt either, and in fact, there wasn't that much specifically about the Evo 3 16G for WRX. Found some info about small 16G's and large 16G's (not quite the same as the Evo 3 16G). Did find some info about the EJ5-40T. I guess some guy (Nick) really likes them, but didn't find anyone else who'd tried them (and the guy who had them hasn't really pushed them over 22-24psi. I'd like to know if the 40T can handle 30psi)

So does anyone have any experience with any of these?


Max
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#3 Old 02-08-2006, 09:23 PM
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Didn't read the whole post because I'm tired, so I will edit it to respond to everything tomorrow. The thing I noticed is that you mentioned running ~30psi at the strip. That is WAY out of the efficiency range of all the turbos you listed. If you want that much boost, you'll need something larger. Why not just do a single turbo conversion? Get a T78 or something along those lines? If you are going to go with a twin, subaru bolt-on turbos, why not go with the FP18g? Much better than the 16g's.
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#4 Old 02-09-2006, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al5dsm
Didn't read the whole post because I'm tired, so I will edit it to respond to everything tomorrow. The thing I noticed is that you mentioned running ~30psi at the strip. That is WAY out of the efficiency range of all the turbos you listed. If you want that much boost, you'll need something larger. Why not just do a single turbo conversion? Get a T78 or something along those lines? If you are going to go with a twin, subaru bolt-on turbos, why not go with the FP18g? Much better than the 16g's.
Here's an example of what's been done with twin MHI Evo3 16G's on TD05 headers:
http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=313133
and a indication of the 6G72 engine's demand and what's needed to boost ~30psi:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm

You're right that the Evo3-16G's aren't exactly in their most efficient range at 30psi, but with a good intercooler, and VP C16, awhp has been proven to continue increasing up to high 20's - 30psi on the 6G72.

The single turbo conversion would be nice, but as I've said, I was hoping to not have to get new headers. There are a few 3/S owners experimenting with single conversions right now, and there's a lot of stuff that has to be moved since the 3/S engine bay is extremely tight. That said, someone HAS made 640 awhp on pump gas with a GT42R, but I don't think I'll be going that route.

As for the 18G's I like the fact that they're more efficient, but they'll also spool slower. We've got a couple of Stealth owners who have twin 18G's. One of them has made some good runs hitting 10.9@129.5 (on worn all-season tires:eek: ) and hit a 132mph trap at 26psi, but these guys are more about 1/4's and highway pulls. At least with the E3-16G's in the log in the link above though, he's hitting 7psi by 3000rpm 12psi by 3500rpm and 20psi by 4000rpm which isn't bad for roadcourse use. From some logs taken by the guys with the 18G's, lag seems to be about +600rpm.

Unless the WRX fitment Evo3-16G's are deficient performance-wise compared to the stock MHI Evo3-16G's, they're probably what I'll be going with. More a matter of which ones (company) to go with at the moment. If for some reason I end up not going with the WRX-16G's, my other option was to look into a twin T3/T4 setup with some Turbonetics BB's. We DO have a company making headers for that. They usually have it as a kit (non-BB) but the headers alone would probably run $2+k. The kit has run a 10.69 with the non-BB's though. With the faster spool of the BB's, it might be a great roadcourse setup.


Thanks for the help and keep it coming,
Max
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#5 Old 02-11-2006, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemax_1
BTW, I've tried searching about these turbos, but thus far have only come up with some comparisons to VF34's. Not much on the Deadbolt either, and in fact, there wasn't that much specifically about the Evo 3 16G for WRX. Found some info about small 16G's and large 16G's (not quite the same as the Evo 3 16G). Did find some info about the EJ5-40T. I guess some guy (Nick) really likes them, but didn't find anyone else who'd tried them (and the guy who had them hasn't really pushed them over 22-24psi. I'd like to know if the 40T can handle 30psi)

So does anyone have any experience with any of these?


Max
I have had my 40T doing 25psi without any issues...I haven't gone to 30 cause my internals wouldn't like that much...but I am sure the 40T can do it without problems on the EJ20

I have a lot of info about all those turbos you listed...what exactly do you want to know?

"Life's a bowl of punch so go ahead and Spike it!" -311
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#6 Old 02-12-2006, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick4592
I have had my 40T doing 25psi without any issues...I haven't gone to 30 cause my internals wouldn't like that much...but I am sure the 40T can do it without problems on the EJ20

I have a lot of info about all those turbos you listed...what exactly do you want to know?
Was that set to 25psi or a boost spike to 25psi? I do recall reading a thread where you mentioned you had a boost spike but didn't have a problem from it.

Also, any idea where to find a real compressor map for the EJ5-40T? I can't seem to find one of those. I have compressor maps of the factory MHI TD05H Evo3-16G and it actually matches the 6G72 demand lines fairly well. I'd like to see what the Momentum turbo looks like. The only map I've found was at VividRacing but I'm wondering if this really is the right map for the EJ5-40T or whether it might be for something bigger like their EJ5-50T or something else. The map that I saw at VividRacing flows substantially more than an Evo3-16G and in fact, although Momentum says this turbo doesn't outflow an 18G, the VividRacing compressor map shows something that DOES outflow an 18G and even a 20G, and not by a small amount either.

If in fact, that IS the correct map for the EJ5-40T at the bottom of the page here:
http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/p...oducts_id/9519
then this turbo is most definitely not for me. If that map is correct, the turbos would be incredibly laggy on my car. Far laggier than a twin VF34, 16G or 18G or even a 20G. To give you an idea of what the compressor map at VividRacing indicates, the turbo in that map would flow somewhere in between a GT35 and GT42 and those are some friggin huge turbos.

I'm pretty sure that it can't be the correct compressor map for an EJ5-40T, because if it was, there's no way that thing would spool anywhere even near as fast as a single VF-34 or 16G even on an EJ20 block.

I you have info about the other turbos in the list, I'm interested in hearing about those too. Since they all seem to be Evo3-16G variants, do you have any idea if they use the original Evo3 compressor housing? It's actually a little bigger than the large 16G housing and flows better. If they're calling it an Evo3-16G, I'd definitely assume that they're using the lighter (and slightly larger) Evo3 wheels with the thinner blades? Now since MHI doesn't make these with the Subaru flanged turbine, any idea what the 3 company's use for the turbine side? The Evo3 turbine housing is redesigned to also be a bit better than the large 16G and about 2.5-2.7 lbs lighter.

Lastly, what made you choose the Momentum turbo instead of one of the other options? At the moment, the Deadbolt (said they can build me a Zilla Evo3-16G) or the Forced Performance Evo3-16G look like the safest choices from companies with good reputations, but I'm always willing to give a new manufacturer/vendor like Momentum a try, but only if I can determine that they can meet my expectations in performance and reliability. Most of what I've read about customer's with Momentum turbos has been positive, but I've just recently heard from a couple of people with less than stellar experiences with their Momentum turbos, which makes me a little wary. That coupled with the only compressor map I could find which shows me something that doesn't fit my requirements. I'll try emailing Momentum directly on Monday to see if I can get a compressor map from them.


Max
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#7 Old 02-12-2006, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemax_1
Was that set to 25psi or a boost spike to 25psi? I do recall reading a thread where you mentioned you had a boost spike but didn't have a problem from it.
Until a week ago it was just boost spike...I bought a new boost syloid which let us control the boost a lot easier so I put 110oct in the tank and tuned her up...now I hold boost to 25psi holds til about 6K drops off to 23 psi to redline

Quote:
Also, any idea where to find a real compressor map for the EJ5-40T? I can't seem to find one of those. I have compressor maps of the factory MHI TD05H Evo3-16G and it actually matches the 6G72 demand lines fairly well. I'd like to see what the Momentum turbo looks like. The only map I've found was at VividRacing but I'm wondering if this really is the right map for the EJ5-40T or whether it might be for something bigger like their EJ5-50T or something else. The map that I saw at VividRacing flows substantially more than an Evo3-16G and in fact, although Momentum says this turbo doesn't outflow an 18G, the VividRacing compressor map shows something that DOES outflow an 18G and even a 20G, and not by a small amount either.
That map looks like the 40T...the 40T flows 390cfm but I am sure that it doesn't out flow a 18G...I personally haven't used a 18G so maybe it does...I do know that the 40T will out do any 16G.



Quote:
I you have info about the other turbos in the list, I'm interested in hearing about those too. Since they all seem to be Evo3-16G variants, do you have any idea if they use the original Evo3 compressor housing? It's actually a little bigger than the large 16G housing and flows better. If they're calling it an Evo3-16G, I'd definitely assume that they're using the lighter (and slightly larger) Evo3 wheels with the thinner blades? Now since MHI doesn't make these with the Subaru flanged turbine, any idea what the 3 company's use for the turbine side? The Evo3 turbine housing is redesigned to also be a bit better than the large 16G and about 2.5-2.7 lbs lighter.
I will see what I can find in the way of correct info for ya before I just start talking out my butt

Quote:
Lastly, what made you choose the Momentum turbo instead of one of the other options? At the moment, the Deadbolt (said they can build me a Zilla Evo3-16G) or the Forced Performance Evo3-16G look like the safest choices from companies with good reputations, but I'm always willing to give a new manufacturer/vendor like Momentum a try, but only if I can determine that they can meet my expectations in performance and reliability. Most of what I've read about customer's with Momentum turbos has been positive, but I've just recently heard from a couple of people with less than stellar experiences with their Momentum turbos, which makes me a little wary. That coupled with the only compressor map I could find which shows me something that doesn't fit my requirements. I'll try emailing Momentum directly on Monday to see if I can get a compressor map from them.
I got with momentum as a "Test Bed" about a little over a year ago before the 40T hit the market and I really liked the way the turbo performed both on and off the track...the only reason why most people dont think Momentum Turbo's will last is because they haven't been on the market long so a mass amount of people haven't been using them...I have a lot of confidence in the Momentum and I hope to see more turbos come out of them.

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#8 Old 02-12-2006, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by nick4592
That map looks like the 40T...the 40T flows 390cfm but I am sure that it doesn't out flow a 18G...I personally haven't used a 18G so maybe it does...I do know that the 40T will out do any 16G.
? 390cfm? I thought the 40T is supposed to flow about 580cfm? And this flow number is usually taken at a 2.0 PR. That's what the Evo3-16G is rated for, about 580cfm at 2.0 PR.

How does the compressor map at VividRacing look like a 40T? The turbo in that map flows OVER 900cfm at 2.0 PR and has a max flow of ~1015cfm?


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#9 Old 02-12-2006, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemax_1
? 390cfm? I thought the 40T is supposed to flow about 580cfm? And this flow number is usually taken at a 2.0 PR. That's what the Evo3-16G is rated for, about 580cfm at 2.0 PR.
Oops sorry I was a bit drunk when I typed that up last night

Quote:
How does the compressor map at VividRacing look like a 40T? The turbo in that map flows OVER 900cfm at 2.0 PR and has a max flow of ~1015cfm?


Max

I think that map just shows what the turbo can do....I am pretty sure that it is just pushing hot air at 1015cfm...I do know for sure however that the 40T can handle 25psi without any issues

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#10 Old 02-13-2006, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick4592
Oops sorry I was a bit drunk when I typed that up last night




I think that map just shows what the turbo can do....I am pretty sure that it is just pushing hot air at 1015cfm...I do know for sure however that the 40T can handle 25psi without any issues
Actually, the more I think about it, the more postive I am that it CAN'T be a map of the 40T. If you examine that map, you'll see there's absolutely no way in hell that the turbo in that map could spool faster on an EJ20 than a VF-34. Look at the surge line, it's at 290cfm at 2.2 PR! With some calculations and accounting for VE, a 2.0 liter engine can't hit 15psi with the turbo in that compressor map until over ~4200rpm.

To put it simply, there is no way that the map in that link 'shows what the turbo can do'. When I asked Momentum a few basic questions about this turbo last week. I was told that the turbo flows more than 16G's but less than an 18G. That map shows a turbo that flows almost 150% of a TD06H-20G. It flows more than a GT35R. There is absolutely no way that compressor map is for a turbo that supposedly can spool as fast as or faster than a VF-34 and/or 16G.

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#11 Old 02-13-2006, 05:22 AM
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Well, I figured out where I'd seen that compressor map that VividRacing claims is for the EJ5-40T before. It's actually a map of a Turbonetics T61:
http://www.turbocharged.com/catalog/compmaps/t61.html

Knew the damn thing was too big for anything supposedly comparable to an Evo3-16G.


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#12 Old 02-13-2006, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
If you examine that map, you'll see there's absolutely no way in hell that the turbo in that map could spool faster on an EJ20 than a VF-34.
I know it does for sure spool faster than the VF34 because I personally used both turbos on the same car with the same mods and the 40T spools much sooner and harder than the VF34

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#13 Old 02-13-2006, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by nick4592
I know it does for sure spool faster than the VF34 because I personally used both turbos on the same car with the same mods and the 40T spools much sooner and harder than the VF34
Exactly, and you're not the only one who's had it spool faster than a VF-34, which is why I said it can't be a map for the EJ5-40T, but the whole thing is moot anyway. As I said, that map is for a Garrett T-61 compressor.


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