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Talk me outta meth!

22K views 50 replies 11 participants last post by  synolimit 
#1 ·
Need someone to talk me out of moving to meth injection. I am currently tuned on E85, which I love. It burns clean, don't have to worry about my plugs so to speak, and I can run 30deg of timing at 6k on 22lbs of boost!
However...I have to plan around E85 stations when I take a trip 2 miles outside city limits or pack around 2 tunes, and then can't mix fuels. I can't make trips outside the state really without tuning to gas and then I have to grandma it because my wastegate spring is 19lbs and I am not going to run 19lbs on crap gas, on top of that I haven't spent a great deal of time on my gasoline tune. So I am very seriously considering moving to meth and losing the 5 or 6 horsepower on top.
Anyone with any horror stories they can share to change my mind?
Thanks!
 
#2 ·
E85 is easier and safer. Maybe you should just run Ethanol on occasion for cleaning and 93/91 all other times.

The cost of Meth will NOT offset the "out of your way" travel. We only have 4-5 stations in SA (not a small city by any means) which means it runs out fast (same day as the truck comes) which is Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Have you pulled your engine apart to see "how" clean E85 is burning ?

Might be the dealbreaker.

Meth is safe no matter what people say as long as you have the correct kit.
 
#3 ·
Not sure how to take your post as it starts with "E85 is easier and safer" and ends with "meth is safe no matter what people say". I have had parts of the motor apart, and of course had the plugs out several times, no garbage on the plugs and valves look clean, granted it only has 17k miles on it and 10k of those are on E85. It's just turning into a major pita.
 
#4 ·
Meth is just like E85 IMO. Its not a permenant thing either. Unless you are carrying a jug of it around with you at all times. Its a temporary fix to a problem. But I have seen subies running it with great success also. If you do your research and get a competent kit, with all the fail safes integrated, and get a good tune, why should anyone have to talk you out of something YOU want to do?
 
#5 ·
Well I always appreciate experience from someone who has maybe done it and hated it...Like I did the research on E85 but I didn't really consider just how big of a pain it would be come ski season, etc. I was in "make it go fast" mindset, so I am looking for experience I might not be fully considering this time around. And 50/50 meth is pretty readily available just about anywhere really, if you use the classic wwf/heet trick, I am just looking for experience really, I have not owned a meth injected car as of yet.
 
#6 ·
I see where you are coming from. Just a another quick question are you a member or do you check out NASIOC.com? I know several guys on there, and I know for a fact that they either have ran, or are still running meth. Have you already started looking at kits or just doing the pros/cons first?
 
#7 ·
Meth and E85 are equally safe. Never ran E85 but did run Meth.

E85 is safer if you don't "run out" of Meth... Sorry, should have slowed on the response.

I like Meth more based on availability and that I pay attention to my vehicles more than the commoner.

E85 isn't consistent unlike Meth (IF you can mix it correctly).

How's that Mr Picky? haha
 
#8 ·
Yeah I am on NASIOC frequently. It always seems 6 of one half a dozen of the other, I have no doubt I can make it fairly fail safe. And I have sorta looked at a couple of the more popular kits, and the 5 or 6 horsepower isn't a big deal when you get in the 400whp range so that's sorta a moot point.
I was really just looking for real world experience and real cons. Typically when I get sucked into an E85 vs Meth thread it turns into flame wars, so thought maybe a cool head actually running it might have a few cons I have not considered.
Maybe I should just put the time in for a full 91 (Colorado) tune, on 19lbs and slacken the timing to whatever it takes and have 2 full tunes. I like the E85, just sick of fuel hunting.
 
#10 ·
hmm, so your doing great on e85 and even though you can run 22psi on gas you just dont want to and feel its unsafe? of course it is at 30* but what about running maybe 24psi on gas and only 20* for example? There’s huge debates about power on Nasioc with timing vs boost, seems like your a timing guy while im a boost guy. does colorado have 93?

i wouldnt mind running either but i could only run Aquamist and feel safe. $750 or $1000 is just not in the budget though!! plus there’s always that "chance" something could fail with correct mix, fail safe's and idk how i feel about that. from what ive read i would never mix my own! something happens when you mix meth and water that the meth has some chemical reaction or evaporates or something but point is you lose your correct 50/50 mix. summit racing by my house carries Devils Own brew and thats all id trust. many people have still blown their motors running meth so to me the benefit doesnt out weigh the risk.

whats so wrong about switching maps when you need to? i know you said you dont have time in your gas map but either way you must put the time in to be able to run gas/meth or just gas.

personally if it were me i have no problem running and making a e85 map, then waiting till i am super low on fuel and then switching the map and filling up with gas. i mean really, that switch over tank of gas may make you baby it a little till your 100% sure all of the e85 is out of the tank (or gas is 100% out if your switching back) but do you really think in that first 100 miles your gonna go all fast and the furious on the street and need all 400 of your horse power? like you said, its for trips and stuff. why do you need 400awhp to go snowboarding vs 300-350hp??

just keep your "summer" e85 map and make a good, safe, lower boost, low timing "winter" map and enjoy the money saving and fuel saving in the winter.

PS i hope you know E85 in the winter all over the US is NOT e85! its more like e70 so you might as well run gas in the winter anywho.
 
#11 ·
E85 in most places doesn't actually change much in the winter, I know regulations say e70 is a winter blend, but even here with several tuned e85 Subaru's and 4 stations selling E85, they simply do not go through enough volume for the tanks to mix out seasonally. It's more like e75 year round, I have never seen my afr change much seasonally. I don't think I would be comfortable pushing 24lbs on 91 which is Colorado high octane, and at 22.5 through to 7k it's right at the 1.5 XT-R's efficiency. High elevation would require a dom 3 or bigger to push 24 anywhere past about 5000, which is just not my game. It's not really about timing vs boost to me, I tune for the boost I want or near the Turbo's efficiency and then I get as much timing as possible, which usually results with best torque and power.
And you never know when random street race is gonna break out! Haha, if I have the car I want the power all the time. But yeah I have an eco map tuned at 0 wgdc's for mostly closed loop driving that I will probably just live with. Just wanted to see if there were any huge drawbacks I was not thinking of.
 
#13 ·
The downside is when the failsafes don't work. The ECU has no idea when you run out of meth,the nozzle get blocked,the pump malfunctions or it gets mixed incorrectly. To get the benifits you need to be tuned for it and meth injection usually requires a leaner base AFR. Most tuner tune meth maps for 12-12.5:1 AFR.
There are failsafe, failsafe and failsafes... - NASIOC
 
#14 ·
Which is why I stay away from meth. I just wish my tuner would get his feet wet in the E85 game. Eh....oh well. Ron always comes through with a good responce. !Thumbs Up
 
#18 ·
lol, thanks for trying to talk me down. Unfortunately the addiction is just too powerful!

On another note, I think I have decided to put up with E85 hunting. I really do not want to install a kit and an AFR gauge (I like my car stock looking inside and E85 is very reliable and forgiving) and failsafe ecu management, I would rather carry 2 tunes all the time I think. Maybe if I didn't already put the money into running e85 it would be a different story.
 
#20 ·
I cracked a piston ring using a highly respected meth injection kit...this was done at 22psi on vf52. I found a small leak in the meth hose connecting to the kit...could have been problem...parts could have been the issue. Either way I would never run meth again not even a 1000$ kit installed by pros. I will not be running e85 either....Its a pain to buy it, kills your gas mileage, ruins your engine and everything it passes through. Subarus arent' built for e85 otherwise they would say flex fuel on the side. I have personally talked to mechanics and tuners and they said they saw the longterm effects of ethanol/methanol. I have done extensive research and people pull amazing times on e85 but I plan on going faster on another fuel prob 104-110-c16....about to post about it actually. Please put in your two cents if its helpful
 
#21 ·
Funny this thread was re sparked, as I am re tuning for premium right now...It's depressing, dropped boost by 2lbs and timing by 7+ deg with a richer mixture. I will not give up E85, regardless of what the "experts" say. There are plenty of counter arguments for each argument for and against. The only argument I need is 50 horsepower, a clean engine, and no noticeable wear on my injectors or pump and fuel tank lining as of yet. Granted it only has 17k miles on it, but there are plenty of Subaru owners who have been running the stuff for 75k miles and have no issues at all. This is not on the VF52, but I still had noticeable gains on the stock turbo.
 
#22 ·
^^^ will "experts" in the govt change your mine? i heard or read something about them canceling millions and millions in subsidies and i believe that means E85 will be like $5-10-15 a gallon now.

EDIT: ok i read more, its 6 billion dollars i believe
 
#24 ·
meth was 2$ gallon now they found out race guys use it its $3.40 here in ny....what a joke. I wanna run c16 but it will kill my o2 sensors....might just go cam2 or e85 who knows. I will have to get 850s cause I don't know if my 750s will support e85 on vf52. The math is pushing it but e85 creates so much power its tempting
 
#25 ·
Well, those aren't really experts, but more like government agencies who control something beyond my control. And if they cut billions in corn subsidies, E85 will be the least of our concerns. Don't forget at the same time they are still trying to distill alcohol from other parts of the plant as well as all sorts of other sources, as well as working on a new sort of yeast in the chem lab that will speed the process up greatly. As well as all sorts of things that probably none of us know, these are things well out of my control and a bit off topic, but if corn goes up I will probably not be so worried about E85...if it goes up to 5$ a gallon imagine what a box of cereal will cost, or the other 99% of our common goods that have corn in them.


**I got 22 mpg out of E85 with a Dom 1.5XT-R and 1000cc injectors. Alcohol requires quite a bit more timing and you can run it a bit leaner than stoich and still get good power in closed loop, it burns much cooler and much cleaner. It is a bit harder on plastic and supposedly your tank but I have not seen any premature wear yet, I have been on the corn for almost 2 years.
 
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