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The time finally came...motor build!

28K views 60 replies 7 participants last post by  bmoney 
#1 · (Edited)
I knew it was inevitable but didn't think it would happen so soon.

Link to my turbo upgrade thread http://http://www.wrxtuners.com/forums/f75/turbo-upgrade-please-help-30748/index6.html#post265110

Brief background info...a month or so after my turbo upgrade and tune I started experiencing a rough idle after being wot. Not to long after the rough idle i would have a cylinder 2 misfire cel. Talked to my tuner and we got my car idling like a charm.

The second week of August I started having cylinder 2 & 3 misfires and here's my story from there...I was driving to a brunch for work (8/16) and was running behind and I must admit was driving fast/aggressive. Anyways I wasn't paying attention to my tach and bounced off my rev limiter in 4th gear...bad i know :( I came to a stoplight and she was misfiring like crazy. Fortunately my tuner was in the area and after my work meeting drove over to his shop.

The drive over there was horrible as I started having rod knock as well as my cylinders misfiring every 5 secs. When i made it to Mike's shop he checked it out and told me what I already knew...that it didn't look good at all. Haven't taken the motor apart so don't know exactly what is wrong but thinking its a ringland or rod bearing?

On to the good news :D...getting my motor fully built as well as a little drivetrain work and this is what I have so far and want to know what you guys think.

Short Block:
Stock Case Halves
Darton Sleeves
Nitrate Treated Crankshaft
Cosworth Main Bearing Set Size 1
Cosworth Rod Bearing Set Size 1
Cosworth Forged Piston Set 100mm 8:2:1
Cosworth Piston Ring Set 100mm Bore
Eagle Rods

Heads
Porting & Polishing Heads
Brian Crower Camshafts (Intake: 272, Exhaust: 272)
Brian Crower Retainer Set 1.0
Brian Crower 1mm Oversized Intake Valves
Brian Crower 1mm Oversized Exhaust Valves

Turbo
Depending on the status of my turbo I'm thinking about upgrading from the Dom 2.5 to the Dom 3.

Drivetrain
ACT SB5-HDSS clutch kit
Stoptech Powerslot Rotors
Hawk HP+ pads

Any feedback will be greatly appreciated! The build should hopefully start next week but want to finalize everything first.

EDIT:
My overall future power goal is 500-550 whp. I want to turn my car into a weekend warrior/track car and not be a DD anymore.

My goal with this thread is to get as much great feedback as possible
 
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#3 ·
I knew it was inevitable but didn't think it would happen so soon.

Link to my turbo upgrade thread http://http://www.wrxtuners.com/forums/f75/turbo-upgrade-please-help-30748/index6.html#post265110

Brief background info...a month or so after my turbo upgrade and tune I started experiencing a rough idle after being wot. Not to long after the rough idle i would have a cylinder 2 misfire cel. Talked to my tuner and we got my car idling like a charm.

The second week of August I started having cylinder 2 & 3 misfires and here's my story from there...I was driving to a brunch for work (8/16) and was running behind and I must admit was driving fast/aggressive. Anyways I wasn't paying attention to my tach and bounced off my rev limiter in 4th gear...bad i know :( I came to a stoplight and she was misfiring like crazy. Fortunately my tuner was in the area and after my work meeting drove over to his shop.

The drive over there was horrible as I started having rod knock as well as my cylinders misfiring every 5 secs. When i made it to Mike's shop he checked it out and told me what I already knew...that it didn't look good at all. Haven't taken the motor apart so don't know exactly what is wrong but thinking its a ringland or rod bearing?

On to the good news :D...getting my motor fully built as well as a little drivetrain work and this is what I have so far and want to know what you guys think.

Short Block:
Stock Case Halves
Darton EJ255 & EJ257 Sleeves
Nitrate Treated Crankshaft
Cosworth Main Bearing Set Size 1
Cosworth Rod Bearing Set Size 1
Cosworth Forged Piston Set 100mm 8:2:1
Cosworth Piston Ring Set 100mm Bore
Eagle Rods

Heads
Porting & Polishing Heads
Brian Crower Camshafts (Intake: 272, Exhaust: 272)
Brian Crower Retainer Set 1.0
Brian Crower 1mm Oversized Intake Valves
Brian Crower 1mm Oversized Exhaust Valves

Turbo
Depending on the status of my turbo I'm thinking about upgrading from the Dom 2.5 to the Dom 3.

Drivetrain
ACT SB5-HDSS clutch kit
Stoptech Powerslot Rotors
Hawk HP+ pads

Any feedback will be greatly appreciated! The build should hopefully start next week but want to finalize everything first.
Things to note are in green...What are your HP goals, because a lot of this stuff is a waste...Personally I'd avoid all Cossie and BC stuff...
 
#5 ·
My HP goals are going to be 500-550 whp. I'm going to upgrade to a GT35R around the same time I upgrade the transmission...that's why I'm sleeving the block

I'm more than likely going to go with the Kelford 272's as I've heard great things about them whereas I've heard good/bad things about the BC...I listed them as I wanted to get feedback.

Why would you avoid Cosworth parts? What internals would you use?

My goal with this thread is to get as much great feedback as possible
 
#6 ·
Damn man, sorry to hear the problems. My engine is being picked up by my tuner this friday. I can't wait to get it back. Its been taking forever. It sound like your just about following my foot steps. LOL, my tuner is upgrading me to Dom 3.0 should be a XTR also. I have head work and cams done on mine as well. My tuner used GSC stage 1 cams. But, my goals are not as high as yours. 375-400whp is good enough for me...on pump of course. They used new iconel valves for my heads and all sorts of fun other stuff.
 
#8 ·
Ya man it really sucked but am excited to build my motor even though its going to cost quite the penny and don't have a mode of transportation at the time being. lol ya i read your thread the other day about blowing your motor, of which i'm sorry to hear but looks like you're going to be a very happy camper here in the very near future :D, and we definitely are taking very similar steps with our build.

Any suggestions you would have for me?
 
#7 ·
Cosworth was bought by another company about 2 years ago or so and have been turning out poor products as of late, mostly cams.
Kelford is a excellent choice and I highly recommend them. As far as pistons, I am bias, but I use Wossner and have had very good results with them. Less piston slap on cold starts and smoother idle in my experience.
What size exhaust housing are you planning on running with that GT35R? Also do you plan to run race gas to hit 500whp?
 
#9 ·
He runs E85. But, since I had shavings from the bearings ran through out my motor. My tuner started out with new everything for the most part. Since the shavings even got in my turbo.

New EJ257 shortblock
Carillo Pro-SA lightweight rods
ACL Race bearings
CP pistons that are side coated
Nitride crankshaft

Used my existing Heads just:
reshaped
ported and polished
new valvesprings, retainers, seals, and inconel valves

GSC S1 Cams

OEM Master Gasket Set

OEM Oil Pump

Timing belt and tensioners etc

OEM Oil filter assembly

OEM Oil pan

Dom 3.0 (should be a XTR for rediculously cheap upgrade)


Yeah, some of that is completly unnecessary. But, since its shavings in the oil system...its all getting replaced beyond my heads. Which were tanked and cleaned.

Nevermind I have to break the engine in and then get it retuned for all the goodies. Which before it gets retuned my tuner is installing a custom FMIC with one of their IC cores. My tuner claims they run the highest quality cores out there. Garrett or Custom made ones just for them. Which they have been making EVO FMICs for a while and are shipping quite a bit of FMICs for EVOs everytime I am in there.

Research and do what you can afford or think is necessary. My car isn't going to be balls to the wall. So, my choices may or not work for you. Balls to the wall should probably have a sleeved engine or a closed deck engine. That's one thing I think you need that I might be able to squeeze by without.

PS: This is my estimate...things might have changed once they got to the work. This doesn't include the break in oil and filter with a change of oil after its broke in and new filter. Cheap...compared to the rest. We'll see what happens when its all back together.
 
#11 ·
You have an awesome setup can't wait to see what your number are!

Are you using the OEM valvesprings and retainers? What inconnel valves are you using? How do you like the CP pistons?

I have no idea what FMIC to go with...i was thinking about the perrin but then was thinking about going custom like your doing? Do you have an input on the perrin?

I honestly haven't completely made my mind up whether I'm going to go balls to the wall or take a similar route you are and keep my car as a DD.

How much boost are you planning on running with the dom 3?

If I don't sleeve the block, I was thinking about getting the TIC fully assembled d-spec struts with the swift spec-R springs
 
#13 ·
No...my valvesprings are going to be upgraded to handle a raised rpm limit. So, I am assuming the rest of the stuff is good enough because I don't hear anyone saying they had to upgrade the retainers and seals. Just want new to complement the other new parts.

CP Pistons are known to handle a good deal of horsepower. I'm sure some other people use other pistons at a high horsepower that might idle smoother. Which is why I am getting my CPs sidecoated...it kills some of the piston slap. That's the only slight problem with CPs and with side coating its not that bad.

Which exact valvetrain my builder went with is not quite known to me. But, I am assuming its good because this guy builds engines for other SCCA road racers and rally. He is a old aquaintance of my tuner from back in the day when my tuner was still road racing. He agreed to build engines for my tuner but does not want to make his name public. Chad (my tuner) said he already got two EVO engines back from him and they ran the smoothest that he has heard after break in. Chad has used every big name engine out there on EVO from Buschur, AMS, and others. So far he said that this new guys engines run so smooth on the dyno after break in that he prefers his engines now over other engines.

My tuner gets IC cores in from Garrett and another place that makes high end custom IC cores. They make all the pipes because they have Brent who fabricates, welds, and does some metal work. So....I'd probably get TurboXS FMIC if you can't get another good brand name FMIC. They are known to be pretty good. My tuner just says the cores he gets are normally better than the crap that is on the internet.

How much boost that I am going to run will depend on my tuner. He normally tunes for a good useable powerband for driveability. But, I'd like to think I can get that with 375 or 400whp with my mods on 93 pump.
 
#14 ·
I'd be willing to bet the guy building those motors balances every piece individually then assemblies everything and balances as a whole even more. A smooth idling motor has very well balanced internals...Ask me how I know?:D

bmoney: Wossners come with coated side skirts and I have the tops tin coated. CP's are a good pistons as well, but again I am bias.
 
#15 ·
I don't doubt it Keith, its taking a long time. But, if his reputation is as good as I've heard. Then it'll be worth it.

Even Chris got his pistons top and side coated. Like I said...there are options out there.
 
#19 ·
Side coating is just a dry lubricant that is applied to the skirts... Some pistons come with the coating on it like my Wiseco's did:



Some don't.

Other things to think about are coating of the domes like Kirt said. It helps to form a barrier between the combustion heat and the piston, helping more of it get out through the exhaust and into the turbo. It's also a slight barrier to knock vs an uncoated piston. Don't confuse that as your pistons are knock proof if you get them coated, they're not.

Coated:



You can put the same coating on the valve faces and combustion chambers as well for the ultimate in coatings, that's what I'm doing.
 
#21 ·
Update

Just got back from talking with my engine builder and this is what we put together

Short Block
-OEM Bearings
-Darton Sleeves
-STI Nitrate Treated Crank
-Cosworth Forged Piston 100mm 8:2:1 (my builder swears by these and has told me that he has built a lot of motors in the past 2 years with cosworth pistons and has never had problems with them).
-Cosworth Piston Ring Set
-Eagle Rods

Heads
-Porting & Polishing Heads
-Kelford 272 Cams
-Supertech Valvesprings & Ti Retainers
-Supertech SS Valves 1mm Oversized

Drivetrain
-JDM STI v7 6 speed swap
-Clutch Masters FX400 clutch
-Goodridge SS Clutch Line
 
#22 ·
ACL bearings bearings are normally not that much money and are thought to be better. That's the only thing I would change. Damn man...your car should be a beast after its done. Oh...and make the exhaust side valves iconel Supertech makes them also. Iconel withstands more heat.

Edit: Oh yeah...if your not using this. Make sure your tuner uses some of these. APR's stuff will bolt your engine back together and keep it together better than the OEM stuff. ;)


Funny how I almost forgot about that....I would've felt like a asshat later.
 
#23 ·
ACL bearings bearings are normally not that much money and are thought to be better. That's the only thing I would change. Damn man...your car should be a beast after its done. Oh...and make the exhaust side valves iconel Supertech makes them also. Iconel withstands more heat.

Edit: Oh yeah...if your not using this. Make sure your tuner uses some of these. APR's stuff will bolt your engine back together and keep it together better than the OEM stuff. ;)
For whatever reason he doesn't like ACL bearings and lives by the OEM bearings as he has "personally" had the most success with them.

To my knowledge we aren't but I could be wrong...ill definitely ask him about that tomorrow and if not will definitely get some

Thanks Kirt!
 
#24 ·
The ARP head studs keep the heads locked down and they have a higher retention strength vs the OEM studs. I think they even make main studs or whatever. I had these from my last build...I was told about them when I was looking to do my first build by people on here and my tuner. Its very good to know your stuff is going to stay together better than OEM.
 
#27 ·
I called my builder and asked him to throw in some ARP headstuds and he said he was going to use those anyways and just forgot to put them in my estimate. Thanks anyways for bringing that to my attention though.
 
#26 ·
That's exactly what Troy (my builder) told me. He said ACL is on the verge of filing bankruptcy and therefore their products aren't the same quality as what they use to be.

I've tried searching but haven't really found anything...do you know if the Cosworth have the same problems? I know that Cosworth buys their bearings from ACL but then adds their own personal touch to them. They are quite a bit cheaper than the OEM but im wondering if the OEM's are the best route to go?
 
#32 ·
What do you mean by they coat the bearings?

I know I had said i'm using the OEM bearings but that was a typo. I actually went ahead and ordered the Cosworth bearings but am all concerned now as I don't want them to go bad as I absolutely will not have the money to pull my engine again. My build as it sits is $$$ and I'd do it myself but I don't have the proper tools/workspace/time to do it. I'm trying to save some money here and there with parts but if buying the Cosworth main and rod bearings are going to FML in the end then I'll just spend the extra $ on getting the OEM.
 
#29 ·
Last time I was told...Cosworth used spec 0 ACL bearings. FML if I get a pair of bad ACL bearings. I do not want to go through another engine. :( Because my engine is already built with them apprantly. My tuner is picking the engine up friday. Which means its already built and shipped. I hope what you guys are saying doesn't screw this engine too. I will be so pissed. Oh...and my crank is one of the OEM Nitrate cranks. EFFF. Way to make me paranoid guys. :p
 
#31 ·
Eh...The runaway builder Ron Williams (Not his real name supposedly) told me that Spec 0 bearings are the same as Race bearings. I'm not sure which acl bearings were used though. Sigh...maybe I'll get lucky. Just can't run myself out of oil this time. Spec 0 bearings were on my Ron engine.

Well. The Nitrite is supposed to reduce the friction on the crank and make it stronger. From what Basco on this forum told me.

I might get lucky too and Chad's builder might've just stuck to OEMs or went with another brand bearing.
 
#33 ·
Kirt what all did you have done on your previous build and how many miles did you have it before you lost all your oil? Also what's your driving style like. I just want to get a better feel about these ACL bearings.
 
#34 ·
By coating the bearings I mean they use a special anti-friction coating. Although I will add that the coating does add to the over all clearances so keep that in mind when measuring things out.
 
#36 ·
Keith: Then explain this to me and why everyone says its hardening the crank when you nitride it. I think TIC just had a pos crank if it was nitrided and cracked.

Manley Subaru EJ20/EJ25 Crankshaft - Automotosports, Inc.

Brett: I swapped motors at 61K miles. It probably lasted 13K more miles in a little over a year. Granted...it ran completly out of oil and then ran for about another 300+ miles until the two bearings let go. It seemed like the two on the drivers side were the ones to fail...probably because the drain plug is on that side. I'm not on the car all the time...but since I started taking the work vehicle home. I started to get on it more when I actually was driving the STI. I mean I've pulled out on on-ramps behind people that have came to a full stop and was doing 70+ in about 4-5 seconds a couple times. People where I live are stupid when it comes to merging on the highway. So, its not like I babied the engine. I'm thinking I am probably fine unless I get a lemon pair of bearings or do something stupid like run the car out of oil again. I think my bearings were already worn when I just had to floor it to show a EVO 8 that I could out run him going to another rally stage. That's when the knock kicked in. LOL, I should've just kept babying it until I got home. But, then again....I never should've kept driving it after running it out of oil.
 
#38 ·
NASIOC - View Single Post - Strength of Nitrited oe crank

This makes more sense...seeing as how the bearings were the reason everyone was having the engine problems originally. Zinc isn't bad for the environment or AMSoil wouldn't have just came out with a high Zinc oil. Lead is bad for the environment though.

SOA is stupid...but not so stupid to keep doing what was breaking in the first place. Look at the bearing failures and how they owned up to it.

Edit: Nasioc isn't a reliable place for all of its information anyway. Can anyone remember how KillerB motorsports used it for publicity and a sales base on its oil pick up tube? People that have worked on Subarus for years never heard of or had a oil pick up tube ever fail. Yet that thread made it sound like the sky was falling and you had to order one of kiss your engine good bye. Ron the run a way builder who worked on all sorts of subaru engines for years said he never had a oil pick up tube failure or heard of one. Unless someone physically damaged it.
 
#39 ·
Under normal circumstances I'd agree, but I spoke with Micha(Homemade WRX) on there about it a little further and he told me that he is starting to hear of more people having the same issues. I'm not saying that everything is correct there, but again Micha knows is stuff and he and I have spoken on many occasions about these very things.!Thumbs Up
Also the whole pickup tube thing, I am still running the factory one without issue so meh....
 
#40 ·
I asked all sorts of people in the industry and they pretty much said they never heard of a oil pick up tube failure. Back when that post first came out.

If the nitrided cranks are failing because of the nitride I would suspect our forums would get a few hits of failures. Our forum got a ton of bearing failures back when that problem was prevalent. We have more than a few people running a decent amout of power through their 08+ wrxs. Hondafan had bad piston rings on his 08 STI....which is still MIA unless its fixed and he hasn't updated us lately. But, I haven't heard of a bad crank yet.

Hmm....well, if we start getting hits for crank failures you can say I told you so. Until then...stop all the bad juju on my new engine. Supposedly the ACL bearings are going to fail and the crank will split down the middle like a hot dog. God...I just want a engine to last. :p
 
#41 ·
Well the reason the bearings were failing was because the newer nitride cranks surface was to hard for the old style bearings that they were using, so they switched to the newer bearings to fix the problem. Again i'm not trying to post bad info or pass on bad juju to you, but you should have all the info at hand like everyone else Kirt.
 
#42 ·
I know...but how many cranks did TIC blow up? It seems more like a isolated incident at this point. Beyond the other poster that blew up his JDM EJ207 crank in that post and some guy that likes to drop his crank on the flat side to see what kind of pitch fork noise comes out of it.
I don't know why he'd do that and then say he has broken two cranks so far.
 
#43 ·
That's actually an old hot rodder trick, but your suppose to tap it with a hammer. Meh again I am just trying to give you all the info I have heard and make sure you are aware of it. TiC has broken at least 2 that I know of. I think you'll be fine, beside if you blow this motor I will have a spare...:p
 
#44 ·
Oh, just to be clear. I'm not calling you a lier, I'm just making sure its not blown out of proportion before its a actual epidemic. Thank you for the insight. If this engine blows up I'm going to flip out; unless it lasts quite a while. Its just stressful to hear that I'm using parts that may or may not last. Up until this thread...I thought it was pretty rock solid. But, my builder might be pretty meticulous and my stuff might last longer than the average bear.
 
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