STi #4 ringlands blown! Time to build it! - Page 3 - Subaru WRX Forum
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post #31 of 65 Old 03-14-2011, 10:47 PM
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Double post

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post #32 of 65 Old 03-14-2011, 11:25 PM Thread Starter
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Actually, it smells horrible, IMO. I hated that smell when I lived in Brazil! Maybe it had to do with those cars (the ones I remember smelling horrible) running like crap, and it was independent of "alcohol" (ethanol) or gasoline.

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post #33 of 65 Old 03-15-2011, 06:22 PM
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So, you're going to fill a little bit in a test tube w/ water. Shake it up and let it sit for a minute at every gas station fill up? Then either keep the map on and run like crap or switch over to a gas map? Fill up with that and try E85 the next time you pull in? I don't want to sound like a dick. But really? If they'd just regulate it like gasoline. Then I'd jump on the band wagon. But, I don't think its worth it if I have to test it everytime. Its another gimmick at this point. Just like Meth. Not that crap they make in the mid-west either. The liquid kind for the car. LOL

Edit: I wonder how the flexfuel cars run on different mixes of E85. How the crap does flexfuel even work? Does the car simply know it has Corn fuel in it by a sensor?

Edit #2: I searched on www.howstuffworks.com and found the answer. The OBD will compensate for any blend of straight E85, straight gas, or any mixture of both. Damn, so its built into the flexfuel vehicles ECU apprantly. Subaru hasn't implimented this into their cars yet.

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post #34 of 65 Old 03-15-2011, 06:45 PM
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Yep, all flex fuel cars have one of these: Flex Fuel Sensor | AutoZone.com

And like you said their tied into the ECU so it adjusts automagically for the right fueling. I don't think any major automakers let the car loose if it knows it has E85 in it, but a couple supercars do now. EDIT: it's the Koenigsegg Agera R that can run on E85.

To add to the comment, it's not like you have to test every time and every time is a crap shoot. The E85 content isn't different every time, but that said I'm most likely going to wait until I can afford to really fix the car before I switch.

The way I see it, I can run E85, but my clutch may start to slip. I'll wait till I have the clutch on hand at a minimum, and even then I'd rather drop the new engine in while the engine is out to do the clutch.

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post #35 of 65 Old 03-15-2011, 07:12 PM Thread Starter
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You think E85 will break the stock clutch loose? That's sounds improbable to me...

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post #36 of 65 Old 03-15-2011, 08:38 PM
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Stock WRX clutch I don't think would hold too long, STI clutch may fare better. We're talking about close to 400wtq on a stock turbo'd E85'd 09+ WRX.

Jason's is finally slipping in 4th and above and he's been on E or a year or so.

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post #37 of 65 Old 03-15-2011, 11:23 PM
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Gotcha Chris, I'm learning as I go along here with E85. You run OS though, correct? That'd probably help a lot to be able to tweak stuff if you get a bad mix though. Eh, 400wtq would eat up a STI clutch after a bit. Its a interesting decision and I'll applaud anyone that does it first. Because sharing your first hand experiences will educate us all.

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post #38 of 65 Old 03-16-2011, 03:03 PM Thread Starter
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I started reading up about regulations and other info on Ethanol, and found this so far. I was surprised to find that E85 is actually not 105 octane like I've seen talked about, and that it is in fact 94-96. I hope fuel stations don't throw a stink about the car not being originally a FFV, as apparently they can receive big fines for dispensing E85 to a non-Flex Fuel Vehicle. Anyway, I've only gotten about 1/3 of the way through this but have to go to an interview, so I quit and I'll come back to it later.

E85 Ethanol
Industry Guidelines, Specifications and Procedures

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post #39 of 65 Old 03-16-2011, 06:00 PM
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Good luck at the interview

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post #40 of 65 Old 03-16-2011, 07:30 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks. The person doing the interview had to cancel on me after I got there. Not a huge deal, as I am highly qualified and I know most of the people within the company, but a family emergency came up and she couldn't stay for it. Wasted 45 minutes waiting for it though. . . I arrived 30 minutes early, and then 15 minutes after it should have started another person came out and informed me she had a familty emergency and she needed to reschedule. I'm back now, and I was able to at least read up more on E85, and that's why I'm posting again. Other good information is:

It sounds like it would be wise to run regular gasoline on occasion as there is a supersaturation of anti-corrosion chemicals, without any real detergents, which will lead to gumming up the fuel system. I think I'll likely run gasoline with fuel injector cleaner every couple months just to be sure it's clean. It sounds like they're working on getting bleaches and other additives standard, but it's not currently happening, so that's something to be prepared for. It's also uncertain whether or not current gasoline fuel system cleaners will work mixed with E85, and therefore would need to be used with gasoline to clean the system.

Next up: 20% decrease in fuel economy is normal? I guess my car should no longer be a daily driver if normally I get almost 300 miles on a tank. . . That means I'll only get 240-ish miles on a tank. Those are all things to consider when making a switch to Ethanol. I looked around, and I may have been mistaken about which stations carried it. I'm going to look closer next time I drive by, because I thought there was one about 5 miles from my house, but browsing online shows it may be about 20-25 miles away now. That might not be worth getting tuned on E85 just yet. I have officially read that entire document, and I might have to wait a little bit longer for Utah to catch up and get the price down on E85. The fact that it's only about 20 cents cheaper here (roughly 7% cheaper) it doesn't offset the loss in economy. It seems most practical to get the car tuned to be able to run E85 for spirited purposes such as AutoX and RallyX events, and just run on gasoline regularly.

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post #41 of 65 Old 03-17-2011, 12:52 PM
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There is a reason I never wanted to switch while I was in Utah. Closest station to me in Ogden was down in Clearfield, and for you the closest is in Orem.

E85 Map

Nebraska, on the other hand, well there's pretty much a station within five miles of you no matter where you are. There are about 6 within twenty minutes of me, and one is about a mile and a half.

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post #42 of 65 Old 03-22-2011, 02:06 AM Thread Starter
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I checked just to make sure, because I was certain there was a Chevron in Draper that had E85, but they actually quit carrying it a few months back. The guy behind the counter said they had problems with the 2 pumps clogging or something, so they converted those 2 pumps to Diesel instead. That seems dumb to me, but oh well. I kept looking on the internet before I went there, and I saw people who had written reviews on it, and they hadn't had current prices since the beginning of 2009. That's why I drove down there, because that was a major contributing factor to me NOT going with E85.

Good news is that I just had to go do a drug test for the job I was applying for, indicating that they're offering me a job tomorrow as well (it helps that I have 5 different high level managers that used to work with me at some time that all work in the same company now). I'll be working in Bountiful, which is close to an E85 station so it's not terribly out of the way to get E85 up that direction if necessary, but I still feel like I will only be using E85 for AutoX.

The pistons should be back on Tuesday of next week, and I have my box of parts ready to assemble. I need to do my reading on good oils to use to break in the car, and best practices for breaking in the motor after the rebuild too. On my bullet bike, I was told by the Yamaha dealer to take it really easy and not shift above 6K rpms, and everywhere I read experts on bikes saying to rap it out or the pistons wouldn't seat and clear the crosshatching or something so the cylinders wouldn't seal completely (granted there's something different about those cylinders, and I think I remember them having some carbon coating or something, but I don't remember what). I need to actually read scientific stuff, and not just hear opinions, but the only other time I've broken in a motor, I drove it really easily, and the journals on the crank had been honed too far, and I broke my crank in half on my Prelude after only 8K miles on the block. I have awesome luck breaking stuff, huh? Point of that little story is that I didn't get to see the results of how I broke that motor in. I hadn't even gotten to forced induction with it at that point, and it broke the crank.

Anyone have solid information, besides stuff from Subaru, about breaking in the motor properly, and recommendations on oil? I know not to use synthetic oil to break it in, and I don't intend to BOOST the car beyond WG pressure during break in (tuned for it to be limited, btw) but I'm looking for info on the rotating masses and how to break those in the best way possible. If I find great info I'll link it here too.


EDIT: Break-in Info.

I have been searching a little bit, and this is what I found quickly. I need to clarify that the above info I said about breaking in my bike was only partially correct, and without additional info, it's terrible advice. I'm going to summarize what's quoted below. You need to rev it hard, but not consistently. You want to increase cylinder PRESSURE without increasing the cylinder TEMPERATURE too much. That translated means to not just baby it, and to give it the beans a couple times too, but only after the car has been properly warmed up without revving first. Varying engine speeds is the easiest way to explain it simply, but that's not completely correct either. I read on a different site that by varying revs, you're extending the parts to their full range. I don't believe it, but mostly because it doesn't make sense to me. It's a reciprocating motor, meaning that by changing the revs the only thing you're varying is the number of passes in a given amount of time, and not extending any parts further (with exception of variable valve timing/lift such as AVCS, VTEC, MIVEC, insert other acronyms here). Anyway, that summary grew to be as long as the quote. I'm done.

Quote:
For those who still think that running the engine hard during break-in falls into the category of cruel and unusual punishment, there is one more argument for using high power loading for short periods (to avoid excessive heat) during the break-in. The use of low power settings does not expand the piston rings enough, and a film of oil is left on the cylinder walls. The high temperatures in the combustion chamber will oxidize this oil film so that it creates glazing of the cylinder walls. When this happens, the ring break-in process stops, and excessive oil consumption frequently occurs. The bad news is that extensive glazing can only be corrected by removing the cylinders and rehoning the walls. This is expensive, and it is an expense that can be avoided by proper break in procedures.

We must achieve a happy medium where we are pushing on the ring hard enough to wear it in but not hard enough to generate enough heat to cause glazing. Once again, if glazing should occur, the only remedy is to remove the effected cylinder, re-hone it and replace the piston rings and start the whole process over again.
Source: New Engine Break-in Procedure

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post #43 of 65 Old 03-22-2011, 09:22 AM
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Pretty much how I feel on the break in procedure. I was giving my car hell at 40 miles and she burns zero oil. Does that mean I beat the piss out of it? Nope but I did give it gas when I wanted to without fear of blowing something up, and chances are it did the car good.

My main concern at break in will be a new clutch, not the engine. If I were you and don't have a clutch to break in, give it some good boost and do some engine breaking and that'll help the rings seat. Just make sure to change the filter after the first few miles, and then change the oil out after 500 or so.

As for break in oil, as well as regular running oil after break in, check out Brad Penn. Some of the highest zinc content out there, which your bearings will love you for. It's also cheaper than RP or any of the major "racing" oils, around $6-7/qt. on Amazon.

Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oil

Here's another good read on break-in:

http://wiki.nasioc.com/wiki/Break-in_engine

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post #44 of 65 Old 03-22-2011, 10:16 AM
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This is the break in I use for engines and clutches http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm and my motor burns no oil and has always had 160+- 2psi across the board for compression, just make sure like Chris said you use a good break in oil like Brad Penn or Royal Purple

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post #45 of 65 Old 03-22-2011, 10:19 AM
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I believe wagonracer and a few others here have used that procedure as well

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